2. Motivational Leadership and Team Culture in the Law with Jahan Kalantar

Jahan Kalantar, Founder and Head of Litigation at Executive Law Group, talks about his experience as a Law Lecturer, TEDx speaker, and human rights activist. Jahan details his journey as a barrister from a young age, his tips on leading a firm, the current issues with government action for refugees seeking asylum, and his advice for building your reputation as a lawyer on social media.

In this episode we discuss:

• How do you approach educating your audience and navigating the law's complexities?
• What is a typical day in your life like?
• What made you leave finance to pursue law, and how did you find your calling to the Bar at the young age of 25?
• Did you find your young age affected your ability to procure your clients from the beginning when you were still establishing yourself in comparison to older, more experience barristers?
• What is your preferred leadership style and what type of culture are your building in Executive Law Group?
• In the age of mental health awareness, did you find that the pandemic affected the way you managed and led your firm?
• What use of technology and practice management tips do you have for other founders, directors and partners of firms?
• Are there still bullies in the legal profession?
• How do you overcome nervous and anxious clients, requiring a great deal of emotional intelligence to deal with?
• What are the current issues with government action in the area of refugees seeking asylum?
• What has been the most complex and challenging matter you have appeared in?
• Can Tik Tok be a tool to enhance your reputation as a lawyer?
• What are your tips on confidence for law students undertaking a stressful degree that often causes mental health strains?

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Learn more about Jahan and follow him on social media:
- Jahan's website: https://www.jahankalantar.com/
- Jahan's Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/jahankalantar/?hl=en
- Jahan's Tik Tok: https://www.tiktok.com/@jahankalantarofficial?lang=en
- Jahan's LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jkalantar/?originalSubdomain=au

Learn about Executive Law Group: https://www.executivelawgroup.com.au/

Transcript

Isabella: 0:02

Welcome to The Lawfluent Podcast with Isabella from Open Law, your go to series for all things law. Learn the tips, tricks and challenges of the legal profession's best and keep up to date with emerging legal technologies and developments transforming the way Australia's legal system is practised. For today's episode we are joined by Jahan Kalantar, a Sydney based solicitor, university lecturer, and entrepreneur who describes himself as the "little guy lawyer". He attributes his human rights learnings to his proud Persian heritage, a dislike of bullies and a genuine belief that one person can make a difference. Leaving a successful career in finance in order to pursue law, he was admitted to the New South Wales Bar Association at the age of 25. Subsequently, he established and became a partner at the firm of Executive Legal where he heads up the serious crime and mental health practice. Jahan's keynote work focuses primarily on the skills and expertise developed while working in the law, and how to tailor your communication for the audience. His work was recognised by TEDx Sydney, who invited him to speak in 2018, on the mainstage. You can see all of Jahhan's work and learn more about him at www.jahankalantar.com. Welcome, Jahan, thank you so much for coming on to the podcast today.

Unknown: 1:24

Thank you for having me.

Isabella: 1:25

I've heard so many good things about the work you do and from other people about the difference you make in our community. So the legal profession is certainly far from simple. And at Open Law, we provide open access to legal information, it's crucial for our mission. And that's what we hold paramount. How do you approach educating your audience, both students and listeners to your podcast and Ted Talks about navigating its complexities?

Unknown: 1:53

That's a that's a really great question. I have found that when it comes to legal education, so I guess by way of background, I've educated people on the law in a variety of capacities. One is obviously educating clients as to what their rights are and what their remedies might be. I've done at a university level teaching students about, you know, how we interpret statute and common law, how we should advocate a position, etc. And I've done it with the public in general, around more, I guess, esoteric concepts like how do I apologise correctly? How do I show remorse? How do I show contrition? How do I show appreciation? And so the skill sets usually the same, it's just targeted at different audiences. So the way you will speak, obviously, to a client who's distressed about going to jail is going to be quite different to the way you teach a law student who's passionate about understanding the rule in Jones and Duncanville versus a member of the general public who's just interested in more how civics works. What is the law? How does it work? How is the House of Representatives representatives constituted? What's the constitution. So it's really about targeting the message specifically to the audience to make sure that they understand what you're trying to say.

Isabella: 3:10

So with all your busy roles, there is no doubt that you would have a crazy schedule, what is a typical day in your life like?

Unknown: 3:19

So I wake up fairly early, around 6am, I'll usually go and exercise and then I'll, I'll head into the office, I'll try to get to the office probably just before eight. And I'll spend about the first 45 minutes to an hour just preparing my day, making my task list finding out my MIT my most important task, which is the thing that if I get that through in the day, I've succeeded on then spend the day either attending to court matters, preparing cases liaising with my with my team, until about probably 6pm. And then around 6pm, I'll head home to spend time with my family. And that's if I don't have to teach sometimes I have to teach at night and the day goes on till about 830

Isabella: 4:02

You joined the New South Wales Bar Association at the age of 25. What made you leave finance to pursue law? And how did you find your calling to the bar at such a young age?

Unknown: 4:13

So it's a great story. I was in so I when I started when I was about 19 8019. I when I first went to university, I wanted to finance because everyone was going to finance it was before the GFC and all you needed to make a fortune was a pulse. You didn't need to have any particular skills or brains. You just went there and you know, they showered very young people with lots of money and it was kind of like a crazy time. So I went and just as I was graduating, the GFC happened, and all of a sudden salaries fell, understandably, dramatically and the world was kind of in turmoil. So I was doing the work of a corporate financier, but I really didn't connect with me and I thought you know what, I better I better go and find something that one is a bit more stable and to aligns a bit more with who I am as a person. So I went into law, bringing some of those financial skills in terms of compliance and regulatory review and all of those bits and pieces. And I worked with a couple of firms. And at one firm, I was put on the litigation team, it was just a quirk of chance. I could there were two spots. One was in litigation, and one was in transactional. And I just fell into litigation, I didn't particularly go out hunting it down. But I found I really enjoyed it. And the the time I was the happiest was when I was instructing counsel in court. And I just remember going into court one day and seeing her honour Natalie Adams as she is now when she was a crown prosecutor and she was just so brilliant. On her feet, I had never seen anything like it, it just was. And we were for the defence. So it was a bad day for us. But she was just brilliant. And I just thought I would love I love to be half as good as that someday. And if I could learn how to do that, that would be a cool way to spend my life. And so I kind of made the decision to go straight from uni without spending much time as a solicitor to the bar. And I was at the bar for for I think it was four or five years. And it was some of the best time of my life, I learned so much I made some friends for life. And I really learned so much about advocacy.

Isabella: 6:19

And what challenges did you face in becoming a barrister at 25?

Unknown: 6:25

So the reality is that there is a good reason that barristers usually come to the bar later than that. And that's because they have substantial life experience. And they have substantial litigation experience, having had neither of those. The one thing that I did have on my side was that I was fresh out of uni, and I still knew how to study. And I still had all of those study skills and they hadn't eroded. So I was in a very good position to, I guess, learn the theoretical side of things really well. And that's what I did. I kind of sequestered myself in my room for I think three to four months. And all I did from night to dusk was study the law, every case, every concept, read, read, read, learn, learn, learn. And when I had opportunities, I would go to court and sort of watch barristers I really respected and go to solicitor advocates, I really respected and sort of learned the practical side. So it was it was challenging in the sense that I didn't have that background knowledge that makes life easier. But also I didn't have any bad habits, which I think was pretty helpful as well.

Isabella: 7:26

Court observation is probably one of the most underrated exercises that you can do as paralegal and a young legal professional. You get to observe court procedure, the use of evidence, you get to pick up on mannerisms and communications, and see how certain judges react to things that counsel says, which allows you to determine what they like and what they don't like. But Jahan, there aren't a lot of young barristers in the legal profession, did you find that this ever affected your ability to procure clients from the beginning, when you were still establishing yourself, in comparison to older and more experienced Barristers?

Unknown: 8:01

Absolutely. It's, and it's understandable, you know, if you're a solicitor who's got five years experience, why would you brief a barrister who's got to just doesn't make sense, right. So it was a real hurdle to get over. But thankfully, what it enabled me to do is, a lot of solicitors have cases they don't want to deal with for some reason, there's something wrong with them, there's a hospital, we call them a hospital pass or a nuclear bomb, there's something wrong with it, they don't want to deal with it. So it's easy to brief that out to a barrister who basically doesn't know, you know, if they can't make the situation much worse. And so I started to get a lot of these hospital pass type cases. But because I had time because my practice wasn't particularly busy, you would get really good outcomes. And when you start getting good outcomes with hard cases, you will be blown away what you can do with the case, which is actually winnable.

Isabella: 8:53

So we loved reading your journal on motivational speaker advice on finding a leadership style. And as founder and partner of executive legal, what is your preferred leadership style? And what type of culture are you building in your firm?

Unknown: 9:07

Oh, I think that legal practice is one of the most bizarre industries ever. And there's a few reasons for that. One of the major reasons to me is that, I mean, people always draw parallels between medicine and law. And I think that you can't, because medicine and law are so different. For example, in medicine, I've never heard of a surgeon every time they make a stitch, there's an equally smart surgeon on the other side, trying to cut that stitch off. That's fundamentally what you're doing in law, you're up against an opponent who's trying to advocate their case as aggressively as they can. And that means stopping what you're trying to do. No one's ever on the side of disease. It's always on the side of medicine, no one ever routes for disease. So that's one of the challenging differences that I think is between medicine law, but beyond that, if we think the law is structured in such a way as to be difficult, for example, your client fundament will dislike you because you're they're paying you money to solve a problem that they can't solve. opposing counsel dislikes you because it's their job to dislike you and advocate their position. Judges are far too busy, they hate you, because you're taking up valuable time that they have the very valuable time that they have. And so when you look at it through that perspective, if you are in a firm that has a toxic culture, and you're also arguing with other people in your firm, you don't stand a chance. And so the analogy that I always use is we're on a rocket ship going to Mars, and in a rocket ship, everything's trying to kill you, space is trying to kill you comments trying to kill you, aliens are trying to kill you solar is trying to kill you. So if the people in the rocketship can't get along with one another, if everyone can't do their job and lend a hand when necessary, then we are stuffed. And so the leadership style I tried to bring is an understanding that I expect from my team to work exceptionally hard, and to do their very best because we have been tasked with a huge privilege, which is representing clients through challenging times. But the flip side of that is, when my team is going through a crisis when my team needs me, we're going to step up and support them. So I think that we are trying to develop a sort of very collegial, very pleasant, very nice, cultured, executive legal because I think that the realities of the difficulties of legal practices, I don't want to add one more pat the challenge to my staffs difficult lives.

Isabella: 11:22

I really liked that response. And it was a very real

Unknown: 11:22

Well, I was one of those naive people who simply one. Since COVID and working from home, workplace cultures have changed drastically, I mean, in the age of mental believe that the best way to run a firm is for everyone to come health awareness, and it has resulted in employers having to in every day and do those bits and pieces and the pandemic become more understanding and empathetic towards their employees. Did you find that for Executive Legal? Did the pandemic affect the way you managed and led your firm? prove me wrong, it's absolutely not the best way to do things. I've seen huge rises in efficiency from my team, and the opportunity to do cases in different ways in different states to engage with clients across a huge new broad continuum. And what it really educated me was on was, maybe I don't have all the answers, and maybe I need to be a little bit more open to to different ways of seeing things. So I feel that the pandemic really educated people such as myself, and seeing that maybe the way we were taught was wrong, and maybe there is a better way. And I really do think remote work is the future of the law, or any knowledge profession.

Isabella: 12:31

Yeah, that's really important, I think, not only employees, but employers have had to find a completely different way of working and leading in the COVID age. So what use of technology and practice management tips do you have for other founders of firms, directors and partners?

Unknown: 12:50

So we we live and die by Slack. Slack is the workplace communication tool that we use. We use actionstep as our practice management software. It's a really good practice management software. And we also use a software called notion which is like a Kanban board, which tells us where all the cases are. We have weekly whips. I'm a big believer in if you if it can be sent in an email, send it in an email meetings are the death of most efficient organisations. And that death by meetings is a very real problem. So we do definitely have our weekly whip and we have high level meetings when necessary. But otherwise, I have a I'm very lucky, I work with people 10 times smarter than I am. And so they get things done in ways I can't possibly imagine. So there's a reason a bottleneck is at the top of the bottle because usually the leader is the bottleneck and I found that to be definitely the case in my experience.

Isabella: 13:40

I love your mention of notion it's such a good organisational tool. Researching Australian Law is demanding and time consuming. The Jade platform has free open access and comprehensive coverage of Australian common and statute law materials. With our easy to use professional tools, you'll get better results and keep up to date like never before. Join the community of efficient legal researchers and sign up today at www.jade.io. Jahan you have an evident passion for human rights. You've made particular emphasis in your career on your dislike of bullies. Do you find that there are still bullies in the legal profession, whether that be internally or in opposing counsel?

Unknown: 14:25

This is such a timely story because I literally I can share this anecdote now. Because it's if you'd asked me a few days ago, I probably I probably wouldn't. But I so the story goes as follows. I act for a gentleman who is alleging that his former employer, breached his human rights by firing him because he converted from one religion to another. That was that was his assertion and that he was owed certain monies that were not paid. And we came to a deal and from the very start opposing counsel in this matter was rude was completely, bullheaded was completely inappropriate sending the most heavy handed correspondence that I've seen in a decade, it really was on towards the more extreme end. And I've dealt with every firm, you can imagine the big firm that King and Wood Mallesons all the way down to single operators, I've seen them all. And so it was really heavy handed. And it was not the kind of way you'd speak to someone, you when you were trying to resolve the dispute. So simple things took a very long time to happen. And my clients started to get nervous and said, Well, what happens if this or that happens? And I said, Well, look, you actually really have two claims. One is this discrimination claim. And the second is a claim that the way you were treated was so unfair, you can complain to the regulator. And if you are unhappy with their response, we will pursue both claims. So opposing counsel sends this letter, which is fundamentally saying, we don't that deal that we made, we've changed the deal on you now we're gonna go with this different deal. And I said, okay, and I was I was a very short email, it was one. My clients not going to accept that we've already discussed it. So do you have instructions to accept service, which is basically saying I'm suing you because I was 100% prepared to do that, and to my clients going to make a complaint about the way he was treated. And this sent into motion, the most horrific barrage of unprofessional discourteous correspondence that I have ever received, I received, I think it was eight emails, one sent at 3am, another sent on a Saturday, basically getting more and more aggressive, making more and more allegations about me, my client, our integrity, the way I had behaved. And it really upset me like it really upset me, I can't tell you, I was almost in tears. And I'm a pretty strong person in my 10th year of practice. So I can only imagine how the impact would have been on someone who's already on edge or is younger than me. And it finally got to the stage where the other side pulled the lawyer, I just said you can't hack for us and negotiated without him. Because it was just that bad. And just in 10 years, I've never seen anything like it like I have never gone through anything like that. And in my mind, because executive legal is such a nice place to work because we're all respectful to one another. And because generally I deal with other lawyers who are respectful and sensible, I thought this behaviour was gone. But it's evidently not, and it's not okay. And unfortunately, it really, it makes me for the first time in 10 years want to consider taking it further because it's not okay to treat people that way. And I'm really sorry to people who deal with this on a more regular basis, because I had to deal with it for five days or four days. And it really like it made me want to leave the profession. It made me seek senior counsels, advice to make sure I wasn't being crazy. It was really bad.

Isabella: 17:58

Unfortunately, we do hear common instances of that behaviour happening. But all I can hope is that we are moving in a more positive direction within the profession. And I think with lawyers being quite open about their experiences on social media helps others that have been in the same situation. And I think also with the rise of newer firms, like executive legal brings those fresh perspectives to communication and respect to the profession despite being quite simple traits. But counsel who in a way, bullied their peers has an effect on clients in general, but specifically vulnerable clients. They can feel nervous or uncomfortable, which is something that as a lawyer requires a great deal of emotional intelligence to deal with. How do you overcome this?

Unknown: 18:43

It gets very difficult. A lot of my practice is for people who have some form of vulnerability, it might be that they don't speak English or English as a second language. It might be that they've got economic challenges it might be they have mental health challenges. And it's I guess, about being a human being, I always think of myself, I'm a human being first and a lawyer second. And I always take time to address the moral side of things before I deal with the legal side. So a lot of the time I have to tell people look, what was done to you was so unfair, and so not right. And I'm really sorry, went through that. The law, however, doesn't recognise a remedy for being treated unfairly in the way you were. But there is this remedy called, I don't know, specific performance, and we can try to get you what was promised to you. Or there's this other remedy that we can see, which is, you know, a section 14 That you know, the reason you did the horrific thing you did was because you were in the middle of a psychotic episode. And it happens I've had some of the most tragic stories you've ever heard. I remember one person I was acting for them in relation to a detain they were detained under the Mental Health Act because they were not well, they had been well because they were there was a special medication that I guess Incorporated, but by way of injection, three or four different anti psychotics, but there just wasn't enough demand for it. And so the pharmaceutical company stopped producing it. And so this person who had been well in the community for 20 odd years on the back of this medication, suddenly couldn't access it, and became deeply unwell and, you know, committed offences and was kept in this thing. And they just kept looking at me and crying and screaming, this is not fair. I didn't do anything wrong. I did everything that people asked of me, I took the medicine, it's not my fault. And they're right. It's not their fault. What do you say to someone like that? What do you say to someone whose entire life has fallen apart in the space of a few weeks, because of something completely out of their control. So it's really important to be a human being first and to talk to people with dignity and with respect.

Isabella: 20:50

That's so important. And the job of legal professionals are only for clients. But that's challenging enough. And for lawyers who are stressed and overwhelmed. And also, having the influence of anxious clients, then receiving negative communication from other lawyers can cause mental health challenges, which also affects the quality of advice given to their clients. So in this situation, what is your best approach to navigating through this and rising on top of it all, in a way that doesn't affect your confidence?

Unknown: 21:20

Well, I'm very lucky in that I have a great support network around myself, I have a fantastic partner, I have amazing team, the team at Yale, and I have good friends who I can just talk to my my best friend, he really has the disposition of the border, he is just the most calm, happy, nice person. And it's very nice to have someone like that, that you can just call and go, Hey, I'm going through this thing. And they just calm you down, you know, you need those people in your world makes a huge difference. It's also important not to put your lens on things, and not to take things too personally. It's it, the recent episode that I described was quite notable in the deeply personally provocative nature of the correspondence, which I had not dealt with in a very long time. And you know what, I assume that that person is just going through their own stuff, and they're not, you know, I, I don't know why you would behave that way unless you had your own challenges. So I tried to be kind and look at everything through the lens of kindness and giving people the benefit of the doubt. But it does get hard. Sometimes it does get hard, particularly when they're, they really push your buttons deliberately.

Isabella: 22:27

I really liked that you shared your approach and kindness particularly as well we as can have a particular stereotype that they are perhaps rude or arrogant, or exclusive. But while some lawyers may hold some of those traits, I think the eagerness to become a lawyer is built on the foundation of having compassion for people and being kind.

Unknown: 22:48

One of the things that people don't understand or maybe misconstrue about people like me, who tend to be kind is this assumption that the kindness means that you can take advantage of us or that you can step too far. And every year without fail, once or twice, I have to have this discussion with someone. Hi, there. I think you've misconstrued the fact that I'm very polite, affable and kind, with me not being able to defend myself and being willing to put up with nonsense. And I just want to disabuse you of that notion right? Now, I am being very polite to you, and I'm being very kind to you, because that is my choice. But if you want, I will be the hell that you will never recover from. And I will be like a storm that will take you down to the bottom of the ocean, I'm being kind because I choose to be, I have the capacity to have a stick and destroy your world with it. And I can put you in that box and whip you around in cross examination so badly that you will wish you were never born. I choose not to do that. I have the capacity to do it. And I choose not to do it. And I think that that's an important distinction. People need to understand that there is a capacity with every kind person, one should always be aware that they do have the capacity to do the opposite. It's a conscious decision that I'm making to treat life with goodness and kindness. It does not mean I'm not capable of the other. It does not mean from time to time I don't lapse into the behaviour of the other. But as a general rule, I don't want to live in a world where people treat each other with disrespect discourtesy and malice.

Isabella: 24:28

And you've done extensive work appearing on behalf of refugees seeking asylum. What are the current issues with government action in this area?

Unknown: 24:36

Well, I've been I mean, I don't think it's very controversial if anyone sees my content that I'm not particularly fond of this government and the way that it treats refugees. And I don't think that's a particularly controversial position for me to take. Fundamentally, I believe Australia is in breach of many of its human rights obligations in relation to the way that it treats refugees. I believe that it interprets To the non refoulement provisions of the various treaties, both domestically and internationally in such a way as is not in the spirit of the law. And I think that the way that we, the way that we behave in relation to people who've been kept in asylum on Manus Island and Nauru, or in hotels for a decade is just disgusting. It's absolutely disgusting. Australia actually has very minimal refugee intake compared to the rest of the world. People don't know this, but 10 countries take make up 60% of refugees worldwide. And the fact that Australia behave so abysmally, given the miniscule amount of refugees that we have, and the capacity that we have with our legal system, to deal with them expeditiously, is very upsetting. And I think it's a legacy that Australia will come to be ashamed of stemming from and beginning with the Pacific solution in 2001, all the way through to today. I think it's something that we will look back with shame. Like we look back on the stolen generation, it's something that never should have happened. It's legal, but it's certainly not moral.

Isabella: 26:08

Are there any law reforms or policy issues requiring attentiveness that you'd like to see reconciled in the practice areas you work in?

Unknown: 26:16

Yeah, there's a few. I mean, to me, I think that we need to accept that drugs are probably a mental health and a sociological issue far more than they are a criminal justice issue. Of course, there needs to be deterrence and punishment of people involved in serious criminal activity, including the large scale, transport and sale of illicit substances. But as a general rule, I think that we need to be cognizant of the fact that people who abuse abuse substances generally have very difficult lives and are using them to escape from problems, and that we need to accept that maybe there needs to be a place for more compassion in that. And I think that that sometimes comes through in the law, but not always. I think it needs to be made more a little bit more explicit. That's one area I would reform. Another area that I would absolutely reform is aged care. I think that Aged Care is a sector that is growing in importance. And yet some of the things that you will read when one reads the commissioners report, I just absolutely like you would think that we were a third world country with no resources, the way that we treat our most vulnerable. And I think a country can be judged by the way it treats its most vulnerable citizens, the way it treats its refugees, the way it treats its minorities, the way it treats people who are old and infirm. That's the greatness of a country.

Isabella: 27:33

It also I guess, comes down to the different purposes of sentencing that the court embraces, we see a lot of contrast, especially with the drug court, it can be quite powerful to see an entire courtroom applauding an individual for succeeding in their rehabilitative journey.

Unknown: 27:48

Absolutely. If somebody has been addicted to drugs, since they were 15, or 16, because they had a terrible life, or even if they didn't, let's just say they did it for escapism, I mean, taking a taking the view that you know they're hedonist and they're doing it for pleasure. To get off that is hard. It's really hard. And rather than us pointing the finger at these people and saying, How come you ever got addicted to begin with? How about we show them compassion and say, We're sorry, that society led you down to the extent that you felt that this was the only way that you could feel okay, how about we'll give you some other strategies to do so. Because until people realise there's a whole toolkit there every if you've only got a hammer, every problem is a nail.

Isabella: 28:31

Definitely. And out of all the matters you have appeared in what is the most complex and challenging one and why?

Unknown: 28:39

Great question. Look, I've I've appeared in I've had the benefit and the pleasure of appearing in a variety of matters. family law matters. I've had ones where there's been international real relocation type cases, I've had criminal defence matters, including matters as serious as terrorism, attempted murder, large scale allegations of drug importation, or people smuggling etc. I don't think you can pick a single one, every single case, to that person is the most important case. And I think that when you understand that the butterflies never go away. I know it sounds as this sounds crazy. I'm as nervous appearing for a 20 year old with a little bit of, you know, a weekend warrior with a little bit of ecstasy. As I am appearing for someone who's looking at 25 years to life. The preparation is different, but the anxiety is the same. And I think it's important to have that anxiety it means you care.

Isabella: 29:36

The Victorian Reports digital portal has been developed by the team at Jade for Little William Bourke, the official publisher of the Victorian Reports. Access the VRs with incoming citations at paragraph level, anywhere you need them. Use a digital VCR to find related materials in other jurisdictions and find the answers you need, quickly access the reports you need on demand with the Pay Per View service and add to your collection with an annual bound volumes of reports. To get access, visit www.openlaw.org.au/access, or visit www.victorianreports.com today. Jahan, you are known as The Tik Tok lawyer and have an impressive 238,000 followers, how did you start using Tik Tok as a platform that you use to fulfil your mission as the"little guy lawyer"?

Unknown: 30:23

So when the pandemic first started, I, as you can tell, I love to talk about the law. Like I talk about it ad nauseam. My family is sick of it, my firm is sick of it. And even before even before the pandemic, everyone said, look, you've got to get on this thing called Tik Tok. And I was like, Ah, it's for kids. They do dances, it's ludicrous. Doesn't make any sense. Why would anyone ever watch anything on tick tock, or bah humbug approach. And so the pandemic happened, and I was coming to my office every single day by myself, everyone else was working from home, I couldn't work at home because my we have a tiny apartment, my beloved was working there. And I thought, I'm gonna go to the office, and I'd sit in my office, which is in a beautiful share space, which usually has like 500 people. It's full of energy. It's great by myself. And I was starting to go crazy. I was starting to get really depressed and insular. And so I just pulled out my phone one day, I downloaded this tic toc thing. And I said, let me make a video about the law. And I made a video about like, I don't even remember what it was, it was something like, what do you do if you stopped by police? And I made a video, and it went, Okay. And then I made another video, and I went, Okay, and I started to get these followers. And it just sort of at about 2000 people, I thought I may be onto something at about 13,000 I knew I was onto something. And now I've got 85,000. And I'm so lucky that I say the most bizarre nonsense and people just connect with it. Because what I'm trying to do through tick tock is simplified the law to the extent that you can watch a Tik Tok and learn something about the law and leave a little bit smarter. And that's an amazing antitoxin amazing tool for that.

Isabella: 31:59

And what tips do you have for lawyers wanting to jump on to the Tik Tok lawyer trend? Because young legal professionals are advised to avoid the active use of social media? I mean, we're told to put everything on private when we're applying for jobs and etc. Do you think that times are changing in that retrospect comm platforms such as Tik Tok be a tool to enhance your reputation instead?

Unknown: 32:21

I think it's I think it can. But remember, I was always a lawyer before I jumped on social media. And one of the problems with law students in general, not all students, but some law students, a little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing. And there is nothing more concerning than when a law student knows 1% of something and thinks they know 100%. And that's why I am certain there's going to be young lawyers who say the wrong thing and are gonna get sued, because they said the wrong thing. As a practitioner of a decade. I kind of know what I'm talking about. And I stay in my lane. I don't talk about things I don't understand. And that's the real difference that there's a level of credibility built off the back of that. But should we be using the law to make concepts more accessible? Absolutely. Should young lawyers be talking about legal study tips? Sure. Should they be talking about case analysis as Sure, there's definitely a place for that. And I think that social media is a fantastic outlet, psychologically for lawyers, because it gives them that release. But it's important that you speak from experience and that you know what you're talking about. I sometimes see young practitioners giving well, not young practitioners, law students giving legal advice, and I have to sometimes send them private messages going, Hey, don't do that. Because the LPA B is not going to look really kindly upon that, when they're, you know, you're opening a can of worms for yourself. You know, it's like Tik Tok, I never give legal advice. I give legal tips, and I give analysis of legal situations. But legal advice is a completely different beast. So the types of definitely changing the role it plays is changing. I would still urge caution, though, because I certainly I know that at one year, I thought I knew everything. And now 10 years out, I don't know anything. I'm confident of that. I have no idea.

Isabella: 34:02

Speaking of law students as a law lecturer, what are the ideal qualities for a law student to have when making their first steps into the profession? And for all of our students listening in? Do you have any tips for confidence in undertaking such a stressful degree that can often cause mental health strengths?

Unknown: 34:21

So I've spent a great deal of time thinking, researching and speaking with experts to figure out what the attributes are that most guarantee success and legal practice, and I think it comes down to three. I think one has to be empathy, although this one's a bit debatable. It's probably the one that I think is the least linked but I still think it's critical. an empathetic person, someone who understands and can relate to the struggle that the client is going through the pain, whatever that is. So that's one. I think, adaptability. The world is changing so fast. Ask there's been more change in one generation and probably all of the generations that preceded it. So you need to be able to look at the future and just kind of turn you can you need to pivot you need to toil you need to think and understand that what I learned today is not going to make sense tomorrow. And I think the most important one has to be resilience, resilience and the ability to deal with life's knocks, the ability to cope with uncertainty and challenge, and to bounce back from the hard stuff because law is an incredibly difficult profession. So those would be the three attributes in terms of advice, there is a absolute plethora of good advice that you can get, I even released a guide that's available on my standard store. So if somebody jumps on, on my Tiktok, there's a standard store their top 10 tips for law students, it's $10, all the profits go to the indigenous literacy foundation. It's it's not so much about having the the technical expertise to do things, although that's very important. I think it's really about understanding that this is a profession and that it's a marathon, not a sprint, you will be faced every single day or week in law with challenges that will seem completely insurmountable, you'll receive factual matrix is that are bizarre. And as you get better, the challenge is actually don't get easier. You just get more and more weird challenges. So I do things nowadays, that would have absolutely baffled me a decade ago. It's never ever gotten easier. I've just gotten better at it. So that's the other thing to understand that you're a work in progress and that you are going to it's it's like having an assignment you for uni every single day. That's what that's what legal practices.

Isabella: 36:47

And if you could go back in time and tell your first year law students self three things, what would you say?

Unknown: 36:53

The first I would tell myself is that it's so important, it's so important to recognise that this is a marathon, not a sprint. And that it, there are going to be really terrible days, and there's going to be really nice days, as a general rule. Unfortunately, the highs don't feel as good as the lows hurt. So the the emotion that you have when you are representing someone you genuinely believe to be innocent, and they've been found guilty by a jury and you're having that conversation with them in the cells beneath the courthouse hurts a lot more than the day that you get an acquittal for a situation and you walk out when you didn't expect to. So that's the first one that it's a marathon, not a sprint. The second one is that I would focus so much less on hard skills and focus more on soft skills had I known how we How had I known that the Roland Jones and Don Carell and you know, the concept of the Wilmington standard, all of these things are so important to know. But it's far more important to be able to speak to someone who's freaking out and calm them down. Or it's so important to be able to bring yourself back when a judge is yelling at you and screaming at you. And opposing counsel is sitting there staring at you. And the whole courtroom is looking at you. The ability to emotionally regulate is far more important in that moment than any legal principle that you can ever derive. And so it would be that focusing on the softer skills and becoming, I guess a better person in terms of myself. The third one is this. It's actually you don't have to be a jerk to succeed in law. You really don't. Strength is not weak. You know, kindness is not weakness. And it's actually takes enormous strength to be kind in the face of adversity. Often I have been often I've been in situations where I could have been a jerk and derived an advantage. One opportunity that jumps to mind is there was a opposing counsel, who was late delivering his evidence, and the court made a guillotine order. And he contacted me privately and said, Listen, I'll just be honest with you. My father is really sick. I think he's going to die. I'm my head's not in this, can I please have an extension? I would have been well within my rights under the law to get no screw you work harder. I didn't. That's not right. It's not the right thing to do. And even though ironically, I gave him the extension, and it came back to bite me in the butt. I'm still proud of the fact I did that. Because I think it was a good thing to do. And the way I used to think of it is this, I wanted people to read my name and an email and freak out and have a heart attack and think oh my god, this monster is after me is going to destroy me. The boogey man sent me an email, and I realised that's really toxic and not normal. It's much better for someone to see my name and go okay, I'm dealing with a competent good person. We can resolve this in a way that works for everyone.

Isabella: 39:52

Thank you so much, Jahan for your insights and advice. We loved having you on the podcast today and we know our audience will enjoy the episode. too. We loved hearing how your leadership style and running Executive Legal during COVID has changed. And the recommendation of using slack and notion, we use Slack at Jade. And it was in interesting hearing your stance on law reform areas that need policy rework, particularly drug law and aged care. And thank you for your advice about being cautious of using Tik Tok and other social media platforms to give legal advice either as a law student or as a lawyer with little experience. You have provided some great insight that will not only benefit legal professionals in your practice areas, but aspire young lawyers who are navigating the modernising landscape of the profession. So thank you so much.

Unknown: 40:37

My pleasure. Keep up the great work.

Isabella: 40:42

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