1. The Future of Law Libraries with ALLA Law Librarians

Today we sat down with law librarians Anastasia Stepanovic (Melbourne), Philip Mullen (Sydney) and Alice Hewitt (Perth), part of ALLA (the Australian Law Librarians Association). In this episode we discuss the rarely spoken about role of being a law librarian, particularly in these interesting times of remote working post-pandemic.

We answer:

• What are the common legal research tasks you do?
• What is the difference between a public law library compared to a commercial law library?
• How has the pandemic changed the functions of law libraries?
• How will your role as a law librarian change in the future?
• Considering we, at JADE, provide digital legal research services, what do law librarians do that go beyond the capabilities of digital platforms?
• Have you had any weird legal research requests? 

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Learn more about ALLA: https://www.austlawlib.org/

Transcript

Isabella: 0:02

Welcome to the Lawfluent Podcast with Isabella from Open Law, your go to series for all things law. Learn the tips, tricks and challenges of the legal professions best and keep up to date with emerging legal technologies and developments transforming the way Australia's legal system is practised. Hi, everyone, and welcome to this episode of The Lawfluent Podcast. So today we have a very interesting style of podcast, we're gonna attempt a roundtable style. And today we have three law librarians from around Australia. So at Jade, we support law Librarians by providing them access to our professional features. But through this episode, we'd like to celebrate law librarians and create greater awareness of their essential purpose within the legal profession. So today, I have three law librarians. I've got Phil Mullen, Alice Hewitt, and Anastasia Stepanovich. So welcome, everyone. Thank you so much for being on the episode today.

Unknown: 1:00

Thanks for having us.

Isabella: 1:02

Thank you. So if you don't mind, would you mind just going around and letting everyone know what you currently do and how you got to being a law librarian?

Unknown: 1:13

Um, so I currently work for a government department. So I'm a little bit restricted in what I say. And they actually said maybe don't mention where you work, maybe. Okay. So I went for a government department. And how I became a law librarian was I was at law school, I went through the whole lawyer process and then got there and went, I don't want to do this. This is not for me. Ultimately, I ended up going well, I like the way of thinking. I really like knowing the answer and being right all the time. That's kind of good for me, too. So ended up becoming a librarian. I remember, first year law school was I had a librarian come and teach the how to use Westlaw and how to use Lexus and how to use all those databases session. And all I remember he was saying is, yeah, there are other career paths. I'm qualified as a lawyer too, and it must have stuck with me. So here I am. Well, my burden, I tell my lawyers, I prefer to be paid to think than to worry. So that's fine.

Isabella: 2:17

How about you, Anastasia?

Unknown: 2:18

Well, mine was quite interesting. I started off at RMIT uni doing information and knowledge management, thinking I was going to be a librarian archivist. And I attended the Australian Law Librarians Conference as a student as a networking opportunity for a thesis. And I came out of that conference with a job. And I was at that role for eight years where I learned to started cataloguing, and then looseleaf changes and updates with the hard copies there. Then I moved into the research area training and life just grew from there, the passion kept brewing, so I like to tell people, my passion found me my dream job found me. And here we are 10 years later. I suppose by now, I'm a little bit like a stager, I did a library course. And I did a law course, intending to stay in low somehow. And similar to Alice, I thought libraries was a great place to start. So I started in a very small, one person law firm in Sydney, and ended up working as sort of the manager for K&L Gates. It's been, it's been interesting. Times have changed. Times have changed, but the people haven't, nor had the problems changed. And I think I'd like Alice a bit and it's a matter of, I'd rather solve a problem and have a problem. And I enjoy doing that.

Isabella: 3:59

That's great. Well let's jump straight into it. What are the common legal research tasks you do? Let's start with you again, Phil.

Unknown: 4:06

Okay. I like to say as everyone says, you work in a law library. So you work across the entire firm, so there's nothing common that isn't in common anymore. Okay. Nothing's ever the same day. No, things have got any easier for lawyers. I don't think the problems are got any easier, the better I think they probably got harder. So we get asked anything from and I think what we've gone through today with the former prime minister in relation to ministerial instruments is an interesting look at we've always been asked to find a ministerial instrument that allowed the government to sell a piece of property or buy a piece of property or, or when a certain department changed his name. The only way to find that is through a ministerial list. So you might think today, you've got not only do you have a lot of Canberra journalists agitated about something, and you've got lots of librarians, entertained about, where would I find that. And then we move on to things like, you know, I've got a partner coming to me who's meeting a client in a week's time, they want some background information about that client. So we will provide that sort of information. So it's a wide range of wide range of matters and things that we get asked a lot more these days, a lot these days with commercial or corporate stuff. So a lot of you know, what does this person do? What does that business do by meeting this person? Provide some background? Or what's their hobby? That's right. It's sort of yes, touches on a lot of what we do cover, there's that for myself, I've always known it's been constantly updating on how the legal information has changed and updated. And what recent judges talking about a particular topic of law, it how was that of interest? And how does that apply to what I need to research and find out, making sure that all the news is captured. So, you know, like Phil was saying that recent announcement, that's things librarians need to be aware of, and let the lawyers know. And then if further information and research comes from that, then we run down the rabbit hole and chase what we can. It's definitely making sure your search strings are right, your boolean everyone forgets not just the end, or the word or quotation marks, everyone thinks that's a pill applicable to singular terms. And you think, oh, no, no, it's okay. It doesn't need that. And it's just, yeah, every day is quite different. How about you Alice? So because I work in a very specific niche, little firm at the moment, my past life in academic libraries is very different. You get a question on any topic from anywhere from any academic or student and its completely different. But because I'm in the particular government department, we're very focused on a particular content area. So there is a little bit more niche, it's common, but it's never actually the same. There's kind of like the same box, you can put it in, but not really. So a lot of the time my research is comparative sentencing, which is finding what appellate authority says the appropriate range for a particular offence could be or should be in these circumstances. So that's quite interesting, and becoming very familiar with some very interesting ways people commit crimes, and some very terrifying ways they will commit crimes. And is legislative history research, of course, we need to, again with the administrative arrangement orders, did have to explain to people what they were today, they never thought about it before. doesn't come up much in law school, but it's very important when it does come up. And then I do stuff like, you know, what the hell sorry, for anyone listening? What the hell does this word mean? What was Parliament thinking that kind of legislative history research? Or what does the court say it means or even tracking down a parliamentary committee report and then going into the government response to have the government go off? Yeah, that word just has its ordinary meaning. So it's great, we've got the answer, but I just spent around all the stuff doing that, so and then a whole bunch of other stuff. Like we get messages from court saying, the judge or the magistrate has said, he can think of a case that says this or Defence has said this, can you find a case that says this? Or goes against it, depending on which way you want it to go? What legislate, where's the authority to do such and such? Very important for today's news, very topical. And then of course, locating, like even we just get the can you just send me all the authorised law reports for this list of authorities? Sometimes it's just that basic stuff. Other times it can take you four or five days to get them an answer. And sometimes the answer is, maybe. But now you've got an answer. Or there is no answer. That one's very important, too. So yeah, mine's a little bit less on the commercial side, obviously, government, so I don't have to find out about people's hobbies. Unless those hobbies are related to their crimes. So could be sometimes anyway. That's why I could just jump in there and say, coming again, from an academic space. Having been there and comparing that with, you know, the commercial work area. Definitely different questions and different requirements needed. There was always that testing the student's knowledge, you know, did you check this platform or did you check the book collection and just watching their minds? explored in front of response, and they think what? No, I actually have had a couple of the lawyers who I work for who work with me now. And they used to be my students. And they were at first that were nervous about asking me to give them something because as when I was at university, I was teaching them how to do it. So I wouldn't go here it is, it would be, here's how you do it. And now it is here. And they're like, What? No, just take it. I'll do it for you. Now, because I'm on that side, I'm here to make your life easier.

Isabella: 10:33

And just following on from that, obviously, you all have different past experiences and current experiences, what's the actual difference between a Public Law Library compared to a commercial law library, because a lot of people don't know the difference, and don't know that there is two different types of all libraries.

Unknown: 10:50

Gosh, where to start on that one. Really, I guess, the first thing I always say is, commercial Library's limited to what's their specific subjects and niches, and there's particular specific texts and their favourite horses. So we sign up to what we require, we don't need the full access to everything. Whereas Public Law Library, they have all that they have everything you need. So if we get to that point where we're doing all that information, as we were explaining, before, we get to that point where we're stuck and think we don't have access to extra information, this is where we can then forward and the benefit of this law librarians, communities, we all can have that discussion and say, hi, where do I get this? Who has access to it and which Public Library is it at? And then that we can have that discussion as colleagues, which is amazing. I'll just break in there. I just think it's important. And I think what Allison is saying is right. And aligned to that is the importance of, of budgets in the commercial field, particularly, particularly as a more changes and partners come and go and try to mirror your budget, your collection, and what the firm is actually doing at the time, I think that's an important, it's a really important role that we perform, particularly, you know, you know, in today's world, yeah, it's kind of like we have more specific, more of a captive audience of client base. So I'm a lot more embedded in some ways into different trials going on or different matters going through the court. So I get to, I kind of have a bit more of a great day engagement in what's going on. And because it's a, you know, it's an as I said, it's a niche field, and I get to focus just like you would for your particular partners, you know, you might have a partner who's really interested in energy law, so suddenly, you know, every book on energy law, but like, I feel like I'm a little bit more embedded into the organisation in this type of firm, because at the academic institution, I was off in the big law library, I wasn't sitting next to the client all day. So you kind of learn a bit more about what's going on, and you can respond and predict what they're going to need a bit better, which I think really helps us maintain that collection to the level of what they need. Because you might see this government report or say, a Law Reform Commission report from the UK and you just see it in passing go, oh, actually, that could be relevant. Down the line. And if I didn't know that much about what was going on, in the day to day life of the lawyers, you wouldn't be able to provide it wouldn't trigger a little bell going, Oh, hang on. Um, but yeah, so a lot of what I do, because we do have that tailored workgroup, I do a lot of training, and being able to mirror their workflows as a lawyer and actually go, Okay, well, this is the information you guys need a lot all the time, or that stuff you ask us for all the time, clearly, it's needed. So we can tailor it a lot more precisely, and have these examples that connect with our audience a bit better, and really resonate with what they need. So it shows them what they need. At that point in time. I tell a lot of the lawyers that I'm a lazy lawyer, librarian, I'm lazy. I'm not I'm efficient. So I'm going to do it the easy way. So I'm going to show you the easy way and for me, teaching them that means that they can do it the easy way and then when they get stuck, they know they can come to me for the harder more complex D couple of days session to get you the answer. And again, like if cuz I'm not in a public facing court library. They can have any lawyer come ask them a question. They could have any judge come ask them a question. They could have any government department ask them question. My guys are sitting there. And I'm on to the same legal privilege as they are because I'm part of the organisation. I've got the same security obligations as they do so that you can get to know more about the background and context to the questions to can provide that more thorough and more accurate, more relevant answer, because sometimes the question they ask is not really the question we need answered at the end of the day so you can build on from there. So I think that's the kind of the difference I see from being in the department for being at the academic side of things, which is the more public facing.

Isabella: 15:21

Victorian reports digital portal has been developed by the team of jade for little William Burke, the official publisher of the Victorian reports, access to the RS with incoming citations at paragraph level, anywhere you need them. Use a digital VRS to find related materials in other jurisdictions and find the answers you need. quickly access to reports that you need on demand the Pay Per View service, and add to your collection with an annual bound volume subscription, get access at open mods at Alterna, you forward slash access or visit www dot Victorian reports.com. Today Oh has the pandemic changed the functions of law libraries,

Unknown: 15:58

I'm gonna sum this one up really easily with one word, and the word is more. More information, there was more legislative instruments being released every single day the courts were changing procedures almost every other day, different courts at different times as well, in the same jurisdiction, different courts did different things because their children's court had to do it differently. civil trials could go ahead. They didn't know juries jury trials, they kind of had to stop. So there were more questions there about keeping track of all that and how things change and making sure your lawyers knew that. Okay, it's changed this morning, you can't do what you were planning to do yesterday when you went home. And there was just more requests for information, particularly the start of the pandemic, when more people were working from home and weren't properly set up with multiple screens, doing their own research for them was painful, particularly if they're on a little little laptop, or they've only got one screen. So we got more requests out of that, because they just didn't want to face trying to do it on a little screen. Yeah, of course, more requests for resources, because if it was in hardcopy, they couldn't get to it. Or if their internet connection was playing messy, heavy, they couldn't get into it. So like more, more, basically, it all ended up being more for us. So it's been beneficial to the Law Library. Generally, and this is not just in Australia, I believe that would be international as well, it was just highlighting what we have already been implementing. It's almost as though the library was prepared for something like this. We had everything ready to go, we had already been done training, just for those who had an attended or those who hadn't really listened or taken down that note, they've had that opportunity to reach out and say to me, yeah, and I found with training sessions, going from more face to face, almost like structured in building sessions by having more opportunities for elearning. Those video conferences, they were more likely to come because they could sit and listen if that's what they wanted. Or they could sit and ask to come and ask the question. So I found like, it really highlighted the value, in some ways was a great marketing opportunity show, hey, look at all this cool stuff we do all the time that makes your life easier anyway. And I think too, it really highlighted again, that not everything's online. And I for one know that I used to the law library community within Australia so much. And it just bonded us even more together. Because we are all going through this situation. Especially being in New South Wales and Victoria, we were locked down from majority of that time and just saying to everyone help and getting that help, and the skins of hardcopy books that we couldn't get access to into our own collections was phenomenal. And the fact that everyone could appreciate that so our clients, you know, our lawyers, our students appreciated that so much and just made that I guess that connection with us a little bit more with that appreciation. I did find during lockdown, particularly over East, my estates clients were working longer hours or they were starting later in the day and asking questions later in the day. And because I'm over in Perth, they've got the extended service. So sometimes three hours difference and I'm like, why are you asking me questions just like go home? It's eight o'clock. I mean, are you already home? Okay, nevermind. Fine. So that yeah, it just made it more flexible and made us you know, by having us be available for that extended service simply because I'm running on my own right. Correct timezone. It just made it a little bit more easy for them to realise that oh, there is someone around who can help, like almost all the time, and they got more used to that I think it has changed and correctly around. I think more is the operative word. more training, more research, more lawyers. More questions, we get a lot of questions from partners rather than graduates online these days, when we we found that we found that were well, I found we found and then all the law firm libraries in Australia, well, you found that they were well on their way to, you know, basically online, despite what, despite what people say, or were what people want in our firms. We recognise, you know, a long, long time ago, the importance of online and have been moving to it. Slowly but surely, despite, despite a fight between partnership and management over where there's going. So that we were able to, you know, to swinger quite, quite happily. And our set and Anastasia said, Who knew that, you know, online training for legal research was important. We've had very few people turn up sometimes to in person training, but during the pandemic, they knew we were inundated with people. So we've only got busier. Definitely, I like to add to that, I feel firms and universities, were able to be a little bit more innovative with more libraries after through this and after it as well. re thinking, Well, you know, the service held up so well. And I actually don't think I hurt at all a service wasn't used or it didn't thrive through this session. Yes, we were all so burnt out. And I can only speak for so many people, but we were all really burnt out. And that email list of hours got utilised. Like a credit card, I think just constantly emails going everywhere. But definitely, from a corporate point of view, the value add here, and the trust put in place back into the law librarians hand of knowing we know what we're doing. We know what we're able to cater for. And we're there for the firm completely. I think that just three, put the seatbelt back on Tada and said, Let's go.

Isabella: 22:28

And how do you think your roles as law librarians are going to change in the future if not changing already?

Unknown: 22:35

We're AI, that's all I have to say. We are the artificial intelligence without us AI cannot cannot function where somebody has to tell the AI, they're doing it wrong. Someone has to put the taxonomies in someone has to put in the terms first and get it. You know, in the right path process, I can only see our skills being so much more beneficial in the future. We are not just law librarians. We're not just booked savvy. We are very technology savvy. And we have always led the way even back in the day when you know the Internet came back up. Everyone went to the library. How do I use Google? How do I use the internet and we had to upskill ourselves time and time again. And that's just part and parcel of the role. We're going to be ahead of the game. Always. Yeah. It's amazing. Yeah, I think it's just that our role is going to be fundamentally the same no matter what the technology does. We're still going to be there providing and connecting people to information. That's what we do. There's that scene in Game of Thrones for Tyrion Lannister is like, what this is what I do, I drink and I know things. We drink outside office hours, don't worry. But we know things. We know how to find them out and that and we know how to interface with those new technologies, to take advantage of them to either make that easier to find or to navigate any issues. There are ways to finding it. But that can technology is continually evolving. So even the fact that I'm on a Zoom meeting on my work computer could not have happened before the pandemic because we had to pivot, we had to get access to it. And that gave us the ability to do online training, and to reach all of our new staff really quickly. And as it goes like we do get the new generations of lawyers through. And some of it is important that we teach them that historical stuff because they don't know the foundations, like knowing what an administrative Arrangement Order is they that it's foundational, that's how departments exist, but never thought of it before yesterday. Or a couple other questions. But knowing that stuff and even looking at Imperial numbers and some of the old legislation knowing what that meant, because the old numbering system and even knowing what the citations mean in that numbering system and being able to translate the technology back to the original, to show what that meaning is, because those meanings convey more than just bibliographic data, they just show you a lot more what's going on. So yeah, for me, I don't see my job changing in a sense, I still have the same job, I just might do it in a different way and use different tools. One other thing, I think that happened in the future, I think they're going to the partners in the firm, and in the way the business is going, people are going to want more, you know, speedier responses. So you'll want, you won't want to a paralegal stuffing around with his Dean hours on something that should take you 10 minutes. I suspect you'd rather pay someone to do that for you. The best person who has a holistic view of the whole firm, the whole holistic view of all the databases that are available, would be your would be your law library. Yeah, and you know, you're taking that holistic view, and not just the library catalogue, we're not just the books. We're not just the databases, in some of the organisations were the one who organises the intranet and provides that information that the clients, the lawyers, or whoever works in that organisation need. It's just that holistic view also goes, Oh, hang on, someone looked at this the other day, I can get you that because I did it last week, and I can just update it. So knowing that kind of stuff. We're not an information silo, we're an information, you know, Weather Network, where everything we can, we can share it, definitely. It's, it's something I always say to any student that comes through to corporate environment, I say without, if you don't know how to work through a database, the database can't give you the information. So without us them helping you understand that and give you that knowledge, you're not going to get the answer. So that's always going to be such an evolving pace, or when in all fairness to law students, like when the undergraduates when they come out, they would have been taught legal research quite early on in the piece. And it's an inoculation method, you know, they got this shot, but it's worn off a bit by the time they come to the firm. I don't remember what they told me about this button in my database, or it was five years ago. You kidding? No one told me that. I can say that, I admit that when I left law school and went to an event, didn't know that when I became a little library, I learned a lot of stuff, I probably should have known, but it didn't. And that's fine. And that's what we're here for. And I know that in my organisation, we make sure we reach out to all the new starters, and give them that foundational how to deal with our systems and how to play in our sandbox. But we're, we're here, we're here, we're friendly, we will help you. There are no stupid questions. I issue that as a challenge, feel free to ask me a stupid question, you'll only get brilliant answers. But yeah, just having that connection to what's going on everywhere means you know, your library. And we do this research. We do these tasks, we interact with these databases, we use Jade, we use all the others, we use the old system, the old hard copy systems, or we use the official publisher racehorses, the parliament and the courts and stuff. We use them every day. So we did notice that change, that was one little change one week, not a big deal. But if you haven't been it for months, and the whole platforms got a whole bunch of different changes, that's going to be a surprise to you. So we're used to it. So for us, we know how to kind of get through the forest for the trees, and then, you know, get through a bit quicker because we do it every day. For us. It's almost by rote. And yes, there are unfortunately, some research tasks that do require us to go quite far back. And we have to wait for things to come from international libraries or to be dug out of archive somewhere. So that can slow down the process of us coming back to you straight away. But I find the best way to do that is to we'll let you know if that's the reason and we'll tell you what we can find in the meantime, and we'll keep digging as long as we can meet your deadline and we'll do the best for that. So yeah, holistic view very helpful. I'm gonna say something really funny, because when I watched one of the Toy Story movies, and then bookworm came out with the flashlight and had to go look for a manual. I resonated with that so much and I thought that's, that's exactly what we do. Not Using a flashlight, but she gets a little headlamps got a little headlamp. But no, it's just yeah, just we find it if there's a will. There's a way and we're that passionate about what we do. If it's something that's changed overnight, you'll rest assured Would we know what by the end of the day within 24 hours were around it so.

Isabella: 30:04

And those skills are something that definitely a law student or an entry level lawyer who has their priorities elsewhere and not going to be able to match? I mean, I did. I'm in my third year of beauty and I did a 10 week, leave legal research course in my first term. And I could not tell you one thing that I learned from that course, it's only because now, I work for Jade and I train people in legal research. So I've had to learn how to legal research and how to use the platform. So well, so that when I get those curveball questions from practitioners who normally go straight to law librarians, and I'm expected to know the answer to I've had to, you know, spend a lot of time to learn that, but if you're just you know, if you're a law student, and you're not really interested in in, in learning it, there's no way that you would be able to find the time nor the interest to, you know, pick up, you know, some library manuals, or catalogues or

Unknown: 31:06

I always say like, like, legal research, terribly boring topic, and citation is not exciting. But all you have to say in Defence for any law students actually listening to this well done to listening to librarians talk for this long. But see you got for students. Oh, yeah, I have to, someone said in first year, I have to refer to the CLR over the medium neutral, whatever. Doesn't mean anything. In practicality, it's just because we said so. Yes, well, actually, it's in the practice direction from the court, and they might laugh at you if you do the wrong thing. It's the foundational thing, it is the it's all these, like, why does it matter? It doesn't it does at uni, but it's not the same level of practical. Oh, that's why it matters. It doesn't have like, he'll get laughed out of court kind of problems, or the partner will scream at you because you're being an idiot. I'm sure that doesn't actually happen that often. I've heard partners are getting nicer. Could be propaganda. I don't know, I haven't worked in a law firm for a while. Um, but yeah, it's just that it doesn't connect until you do it every day. And then you, you know, as you move, Isabella moved into this job, you're like, oh, that's why that matters because it impacts the answer. Or it impacts the reliability of my answer. It means I am right. But I need proof to back myself up. So I need to get that thing. No one really cares what a student says. I used to tell that to law students, which was why I was like, You need to find references. No one cares what you say. So. But yeah, I think that in defence to law students, the practicalities of practice, where you have a little librarian of this type is very different to when you're at the university and you're, you're like trying to learn the law. You're not really trying to really wrap your head around why the law is what the law is, in its sense, and how it's created and how it's published. Not your thing. That's our thing. Come to us. Ask the librarian. They'll help you. They'll take explain it to you. They'll find it for you. So yeah, that one just I wanted to defend students a little bit. We weren't being too mean. Oh, no, no, exactly. And if I can just add to that, for any law students who are listening or anyone that is curious about legal research, please go to your local, you know, Supreme Court library or your local Law Institute and ask questions, you have that availability, and option available to you if there isn't a law librarian embedded in your company, or someone to actually talk to to run through legal research. I speak pretty much probably for everyone, as a law library, we can talk about legal research, we just can't stop. We'd love it yes or bad. We can't push pause. We should also say they should count if they want to talk, reach out to the ALA Australian law Librarians Association. I'll get you hooked up with someone in your town or in your jurisdiction, who is willing to sit and have a really boring chat about things I can talk for an hour on the 13th century law reports in England as to why you need the sale laws. If you're dumb. Sorry, I have one of my law students is that if you're dumb enough to ask that question, I will give you an election that like I can say I'll just I'll just believe you. Yeah, it says so in the aglc Just go much easier. Is that background stuff? Like? I won't, I promise if you get if you come ask me a question, I will not be that mean and go into that depth of detail unless you genuinely want to talk about that. But yeah, do reach out to Allah. We're on social media, you kind of website. I'm sure Isabella will put it in the details at the bottom and you can reach out to us and we'll get back to you if you do want that. help if you need it. And if you're in a place that you don't have other avenues or where can even go well actually, you are someone who can and will put you in contact with them as well. So, just thought we'd do a little plug for the association there.

Isabella: 35:08

That's completely fine. Yeah, I'll list all of others resources. So if you don't know what Allah is Australian law Librarians Association and Jade we support that we're actually when when you guys are listening to this episode Jade will be at the aloe conference in Hobart, which is going to be an exciting week to connect with all the law librarians

Unknown: 35:31

in person to in person. Yes, I don't know how I'm gonna start with in person. Tell you what all this was still faces from smiling so much. But if you're wearing a mask for safety, you'll have to smile smile with the eyes. All smiles with the eyes.

Isabella: 35:50

So considering we at Jade provide digital Legal Research Services, what the law librarians do that go beyond the capabilities of digital platforms

Unknown: 36:02

and get away feel. Okay. I think, again, it's coming back to the holistic approach like JD isn't the answer to everything. It's a great start. It's a great service. And I love I love Jane, I think more people should use it. And I think that's one of the things that law librarians do they promote things that are good, and a good value for money will save people time and provide good service. And I think J does that. That's one of the things we do to encourage the use of J but it's difficult. People change all the time, people come and go and law firms, it's not just one one. Well, you know, when a lot of people stuck in an office for 15 years and 20 years anymore, they move around a whole bunch of different types of people coming along. So it's up to us to promote those databases like Jade, which are good, and, and tell them how to use it. And that's and I think the other point, the important point, I think also is providing value for money as well. There's not much use having a database sitting there that's not being used or when use wants the Blue Moon because you have to provide because there's a commercial private business, you got to provide effective and effective and you got to justify your purchases. And I think Jay that's one good thing that Jay does, he puts it provides you know a great service at a reasonable price. Sound like an ad for Jade, but it's I think Jada put the example of of things we do. You probably find that and the law firms that don't have Jade. They it will be because won't make why because it cost it'll be it'll be about promotion, and people understanding what it does and how it does it. The only people that do that and do that effectively from my perspective is a law firms. So law firm vibrates and approves I think putting example is the J sites hater. I love using the Jade cytometer. We are regularly telling people how to use it and regularly informing them that the best way to use it and how and how to access it. Sometimes some people come to me and ask me, do we have this book, which is an annotator. They say no, but you Why don't you just using the annotator on J that'll give exactly the same thing and it won't cost us any more. So they're the sort of extra things that multiple Marines do. Also like the Jade Mark, I love the Jade mark, the little bookmark on the legislation saves me so much time to make sure if there's something I missed. And that's the one thing if there's something I've missed because we're human body databases are not but where they're in. And our resources. Obviously, they're not their books. If they start walking around, it's getting weird. But us connecting the different resources and the different using the different tools and knowing to run the same or slightly variations of the same search across different platforms and resources and to use it in a way to make sure that we're complete and comprehensive. We connect the dots as I said before, we're not an information silo. We're the one who brings everything together kind of like the information farm we put it in a silo laid out for you. But yeah, that's that thing. We have that again, holistic view. We know where to go and we know how to look at a database and go okay, why is it not giving me the answer that should be there? One thing that a lot of my lawyers always great, I haven't found anything but can you confirm there isn't anything to find? That is an amazing skill that we can do where I don't think the digital platforms on their own can be so Are you sure of Oh, it doesn't exist? No. Your question to that database? Wasn't the question the database needed to hear the answer. I just broke it. That's all the alternative that I've, I've done a search, and I've got 15,000. Yeah. How do I make it helpful? It's that troubleshooting and knowing those search mechanics and research methodologies, and okay, yeah, well, actually, not every piece of that document collection is available. Here, you need to go look elsewhere to make sure you've captured everything. That is I think that's what the the librarians do. Again, we know where things are, we know how to find the answer. And that's, and we know how to interact and connect people to the resource that will give us the right answer. And if it is that digital platform, and you know, Jade, again, I love those Jade marks really helpful. And I know that a lot of a lot of lawyers, I talk to you not just with him where I work, they do use it, because it has some advantages over other free versions. And then the paid version has just some really excellent tools that make their life easier. And I as I said, I'm a lazy librarian, make it easy, women do it quick, efficient and correct way. And that's what I think the the human element of the law librarian will always defeat an AI. Definitely, if I can add on that. I guess there's a overand out when people we've been asked by lots of lawyers, why isn't there one thing for everything? Why isn't there a Google across all of these platforms? Make you're looking at it. Where the enterprise search at the end of the day, you're looking for an enterprise search functionality, you've got a little librarian search, where the great federated search engine or Google ninja, we are Google ninja, that one right federated search all the the what's the word the golden the, you know, the golden fleece, you know, the federated search engine cornucopia. pedia with better referencing, we could talk about it all day. But definitely Jade's been a game changer into the law profession. Because, as we all know, we all were stuck, not stuck. We all had access to the relevant publishers we knew for so long. And then when Jade came in, it was just this. You can you can do a paragraph note up of a case. And you're saying to me, I can see where it's been appealed. And oh my gosh, there's other cases that refer to this. And it goes into that in depth, where my case has been noted in another paragraph nection. So connection. And that was something that a lot of other systems hadn't forward thought of as much. And just since that it's been a game changer. We've loved it. Thank you, Jade. And oh, and thank you, Jade for having correct medium neutral citations, because there are other ones that lie and a

Isabella: 43:18

lot of importance on that.

Unknown: 43:22

If you go, I'm not gonna mention names, but everyone who any librarian listeners will figure it out. The other free information databases, um, they applied their own barcodes and even like some of the big publishers have their own barcode numbers, but the other they don't recognise them across platform. So if you go into the court, and like defence comes up, they said this case, I can't find it. So I can't read the case that defence says, changes everything. And I'm like, oh, it's because it lied, because it's from that day, and you can still use the wrong one to give you a little bit more information that you need to realise, look at it and go, Oh, that's wrong. That doesn't exist, or they've got the wrong citation. They've lifted, left a paragraph digital for giving you the wrong act name or the wrong year. Having a librarian you can look at that and go oh, yeah, that's, that's not what it's supposed to be. Here's the real one. Some databases do it. Some databases do it really well, and other ones, not so much. So having the librarian who can look at and two seconds ago, yeah, no, I can point you in the right direction. We have yet to be defeated by a digital platform that can beat us on that one. So bring it don't worry, I will always break the database. We'd love breaking databases. If that's anything someone should know about law librarians. Let us break it. We'll give it a thorough test.

Isabella: 44:50

Definitely sure all software engineers will absolutely love to hear that.

Unknown: 44:56

I've actually had bad luck trying to break Jade sorry. Ah, ah, but I think what I mean by breaking databases is trying to find the limitation of it. And identifying Okay, well, that doesn't work. I just did a training session before this, where I showed how to do the same type of research across a number of different databases paid and free and free available websites. And I showed them look, they all kind of do the same thing. But actually, if you look closely, they're all a little bit different. So this is why we pay for multiples, again, about making sure we have the correct budgetary decisions, but also showing that your research won't get answered by looking at one place. So why spend five hours doing it yourself, the library can get back to you in probably like less than an hour, we'll get back to you. And we will have looked at all the places that you didn't even think about.

Isabella: 45:51

Researching Australian law is demanding and time consuming. The Jade platform has free open access and comprehensive coverage of Australian common and statute law materials. With our easy to use professional tools, you'll get better results and keep up to date like never before. Join the community of efficient legal researchers and sign up www.openlaw.org.au/access. Anyone have any weird legal research requests?

Unknown: 46:20

I get asked all sorts of things. And now you're like, oh, there's heaps of funny ones that I can't think of a single one. They're all mental blanks. I've had to look for how conspiracy worked in 13th century France. So not only was I looking at French, I was looking at French, Old French and old legal French. But we got there. It's actually casing the high court if you want to say it's been released recently, you can have a look at it. If you want to have a discussion of conspiracy, but we I've got asked to prove that the islands are part of Australia. Want to know how I did that? We had to go get the latest painting from the original grant of Western Australia, you can take the western third of the continent, and it had the latitude and longitude. Yeah, it wasn't just because it was a declared national park or anything like that. We had to go that far back. So you've got to prove everything sometimes. And yeah, just all this random stuff like I had to do US legal research on the Fourth Amendment search and seizure unreasonable searches, was a search warrant that describes the house as a blue house on the lay on this particular street. Was that a sufficient description to make the search warrant valid? And therefore could we could the evidence acquired by the American authorities under that search warrant be used? So you get some really weird ones? And you go down some quite large rabbit holes, but I'm Alice, so I'm kind of good with rabbit holes. But yeah, all sorts of weird questions. What about you, Anna? I feel like you'll have some fun ones. Oh, the one that sticks with me. And this would have been eight years ago, when I started the research process. I was asked to find out if it's legal for someone to run backwards on a road trip over the speed bump, and still sue the council because the council didn't notify someone that the speed bump had gone in. Because they were running backwards. I was perplexed for a very long time. Why is this person even suing because they were running backwards? On a road. If you don't see somebody's future, every cat you're gonna sue someone's cat like I just ordered on this day, as well. Sorry, in a lawyer in a lawyer brain is like maybe that person runs backwards every day. They're backwards, ran out. And on the weekends, they didn't run and then the next day, installed the roundabout known and told them and the road had changed and the counsellor didn't notify them and because they can't see a sign in the peripheral Is it their fault? Is it to cancel we'll get it figured out what was going backwards contributing. Lawyer Brian goes, Oh, that makes sense. That's why you're asking that that. But the stuff that people put through court sometimes you going why is that even a question? I don't feel free to Google the concept of sovereign citizens and constitutional deniers, the arguments they come up with hilarious unless you're the lawyer or the judge, or the court having to waste their time dealing with them, but the things they'll come up with is like, like, really? That's not how it works. It sounds legit, if you suspend any knowledge of legal system, but sure. I'm not going to go into that for detail because that's a whole other hour of my life. But at least but you get some weird questions like why do I need to prove that the Queen is the queen. Why do I need to prove that the magistrate is a magistrate? So? Yeah. So yeah, you have some very strange questions. But they're all very I think I liked the strange. Yeah, well thought cases see interesting. I think one more in my dig for a second reading speeches way, way back in the 80s 70s. I found a notice that banned ACDC from the CBD for the first time. And then there was a second notice that officially went through and ACDC wasn't allowed to go through yet they still recorded, it's a long way to the shop. No, it's a long way to the top if you want to rock and roll, I was gonna say at the shop if you want a sausage roll. But I was just you what you find as you go through you find beat pieces of your own town history. And I at that point, I think I was just that sucked into the research task. I just wasn't expecting to see AC DC has been banned from Melbourne. And will take a few times ago, Australian. Speaking of being sucked into the research task. For those who don't know, Anna and I are presenting a couple of papers at the conference this week, and one of them is legal research drink pairings. Again, we drink and we know things. But one of the things we're looking at because the conference is in Hobart, we're looking at Tasmanian legal history around when alcohol was banned, and all these quirky things. I was reading parliamentary reports from 1853 on the weekend, because it just got really interesting the stuff they were saying. It was like, oh, no, we're going to ban the production of whiskey because people aren't paying the tax on the duty on it. And it's bad for the environment. It's bad for people because they mix it with other things. And then it's just too bad. It's a scourge, we'll ban the whole thing rather than have to deal with you defrauding the revenue. And saying like, cause extreme response that okay, but like, that's the thing, you get sucked into that research task. And you just keep finding out I think, personally, I think librarians are incredibly curious. They're probably people who got kicked out of like, classes for saying, but why poor parents, man? All of them.

Isabella: 52:28

Okay, well, thank you so much, Bill, Anastasia and Alice for coming on to the podcast today. I think we've had some really interesting discussions, and shed a lot of light on your roles and how that won't be changing. But just be using different things to do your role in the future. And I guess the implications that COVID had on your role and law libraries all together.

Unknown: 52:53

Thanks for having us. Thank you. So being fun, really appreciate it. Thank you. Thanks, Isabella.

Isabella: 53:01

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