Join Louise Mathias, certified high performance, social and emotional intelligence, and leadership coach ranked in the top 1% in Australia, using her experience as a multidisciplinary barrister and mediator, discuss confident leadership in the legal profession. Louise takes us through one of her biggest leadership challenges as a barrister, and teaches the underrated tools that are indispensable for confident leadership.
In this episode we discuss:
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Don’t forget to follow us on LinkedIn @open law and Instagram @thelawfluentpodcast
Learn more about Louise:
- Louise's website: https://www.louisemathias.com.au/
- Louise's LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/louisemathias/?originalSubdomain=au
Join Louise Mathias, certified high performance, social and emotional intelligence, and leadership coach ranked in the top 1% in Australia, using her experience as a multidisciplinary barrister and mediator, discuss confident leadership in the legal profession. Louise takes us through one of her biggest leadership challenges as a barrister, and teaches the underrated tools that are indispensable for confident leadership.
In this episode we discuss:
LISTEN HERE:
🎙 SPOTIFY - https://lnkd.in/gcv-MyqN
🎙 APPLE PODCASTS - https://lnkd.in/gZkqeigK
🎙 18 other podcast directories available on our website - https://lnkd.in/gVmG_-Vk
Don’t forget to follow us on LinkedIn @open law and Instagram @thelawfluentpodcast
Learn more about Louise:
- Louise's website: https://www.louisemathias.com.au/
- Louise's LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/louisemathias/?originalSubdomain=au
Welcome to The Lawfluent Podcast with Isabella from Open Law, your go to series for all things law. Learn the tips, tricks and challenges of the legal profession's best and keep up to date with emerging legal technologies and developments of transforming the way Australia's legal system is practised. Today on the podcast, we're joined by Louise Mathias. Louise is a multidisciplinary barrister, she's a mediator, she's attended Harvard, she's a family dispute resolution practitioner, and she helps lawyers by focusing on what they want and helping them bridge the gap by giving them what they need to get them there. She's a certified high performance and emotional intelligence coach and consultant and dare to lead trained. She assists leaders in businesses go from unsure to unstoppable by boosting their clarity, mindset, and results. Welcome, Louise, and thank you so much for being on the podcast today.
Unknown:Thanks so much, Isabella, for inviting me, I'm looking forward to having this discussion with you.
Isabella:It's gonna be such a great episode. And one of the biggest things that draws us to Louise is that it is really inaccessible and sometimes expensive to get access to leadership coaching. And I think it's obviously so important at any level of your career, whether you're just starting out as a student or paralegal to you know, your experience, Louise as a barrister and a mediator and just at those higher ends of the profession as well. So Louise can you tell us what you are going to be sharing with us today?
Unknown:I've narrowed it down to three main topics. So the first one is what are some common myths? Or, you know, what is the misunderstandings about leadership that people have? And the second one, what are some of the biggest challenges facing leaders today. And the third one is three simple things that leaders can do right now today, to boost their confidence, so they can take that action that they need, going from where they are now, to where they want to be bridging that gap to be the leader of teams, at mediations, etc, so that they thrive and not just surviving.
Isabella:So Louise, what is one piece of advice you'd give to someone emerging as a leader or is in a leadership role?
Unknown:That was really hard for me to narrow it down. Isabella, because, you know, there's so much, but I have worked with lots of different leadership types. And I've also been a lifelong learner. So I've studied leadership, I've studied human behaviour, conflict resolution, and I know, we'll be talking about that in another, another episode in two in the next season. And, you know, working with so many people, it's really giving me insight as to the myths that people have and what works and what doesn't work. But many of the leaders that I've worked with Isabella have gotten to a leadership role, because they've gone through the ranks, they've been promoted as part of their career progression. And that's a real myth, right there that leadership is a rank, it's a position, or it's a title. It's none of those leadership, you can't get leadership by promotion, that doesn't become, you don't become empowered as a leader because you're promoted or you've got money, or you've got power, or you've got authority, that's not leadership, that just means you've got a role with status. Leadership is how we show up every day and how we serve other people, how we look for other people's potential, how we grow that potential, how we grow our potential. And so it's a real service role. It's a real responsibility. So Leadership isn't really like you said earlier, when you started off paralegals people starting out in their careers, they might not have a title. But they're definitely all of us have the ability to be role models, all of a sudden the ability to influence other people, we can all be leaders. And, you know, we often talk about all what makes leaders fail, what creates toxic cultures. But when we talk about these kinds of things, they're actually down the river symptoms of poor leadership. And the real problem is up the river more, because there's been no honest communication. There's lacking people lack confidence, or they're not courageous enough to take the steps that they need to be the leader that they need to be. And you know, they're not vulnerable. And you know, people hear that word vulnerable, and they automatically think, Oh, I can't be vulnerable. That means I'm weak. But when I'm talking about vulnerability, I'm not talking about spilling out all our secrets. For everybody to hear. I'm saying, you know, we sing hold hands in our offices or at mediations and sing Kumbaya together. No, that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about showing up as the best version of ourselves, interacting as the best version of ourselves, even when we don't know what the outcome is going to be. So we're taking the responsive be the role model for other people, even when we're afraid even when we're uncertain, because we're wanting to show up as that role model on our a game. So, most of the leaders, as I said, just setting it up for a bit of context there are in their roles because of their promotions, but three myths around this, and found in many, many leaders who really struggle, they have these traits in common. I'll give you an example. When I went to the bar course, I became embarrassed, I had to go to the bar course for like everybody else for a month and get taught. I cried almost every day, I was taking uncomfortable action. I didn't know what I was doing. I didn't have the experience as a lawyer. And I was put into situations that were very scary for me, I hadn't learned the skills yet. One leader, a mentor, who was my mentor, and told me at the end of the course, Louise pulled me aside go and do something different. You never gonna make it. It's a barrister. Expected perfection of me, even though I was new. And even though I didn't have experience, there was no room for learning, there was no room for mistakes. And it wasn't a safe environment environment, he couldn't see the potential in me, I could, I knew I could do it, I just he didn't see the potential in me. Brene Brown, a leadership with data. She's a leadership guru says a leader is anyone who takes responsibility of finding the potential in people and processes. And who has the courage to develop that potential. So the big myth about around leadership that many have, is that perfection equals excellence. No, no, there are two different standards, perfection, you can never reach. No one can ever reach it. Excellence we can all strive for. And Perfection isn't what people think, Oh, I've got to be, I've got to be this perfect leader. And I've got to, I've got to provide perfect work. And I've got to be the perfect student. But Perfection isn't what people expect. Because people know that it can't be attained. And that's a huge shield that leaders carry around with them as a way to try and protect them away to try to keep them safe. Because when they feel like Oh, I'm trying to be perfect, and it's going to stop people from criticising me. I'm not going to get there, I'm not going to be disapproval by others. And they go through their leadership and their careers and their life, everything's fine. Oh, good. Nothing to see here. And they won't ask for help. And they won't openly discuss their setbacks and their failures. And that's what leaders need to be doing that need to do that's vulnerability, really sharing the mess, the fears, and normalising them in the culture. And then they put so much pressure on themselves, plus everybody they're working with, believe in it, you know, I have to know it all was the leader. And you have to and then everybody else as the leader is role model, everybody else feels like they have to know it all too. So we get, you know, toxic cultures, people behind talking behind people's backs and our direct conversations. And with this perfectionist mindset, they think that if they portraying perfection, that it's really going to instil confidence in their teams, even though they don't believe inside. That's what they think is going to make other people confident that they're competent. But they really do miss opportunities to create authentic connection, instead of leading like a perfect superhero. When everybody like in today's you know, climate world uncertainty, everybody's stressed everybody's fearful. Many people are underperforming. And yet they're still got this mental, this shield they're carrying on perfect, it's all fine. The second myth is all I need is technical skills. That's enough to lead successfully. But technical skills we like you're going to you're going to university to get your technical skills, your legal skills. But there are a separate set of skills to the to leadership skills. Because technical skills don't help us to reduce our fear. They don't help us to boost productivity, they don't help us to find potential and ourself and others. They don't help us to be more courageous and be more confident and be able to take risks. So when leaders focus on all I need to be as technical and all my teams need to be technical. It doesn't help them develop who they are as a person and who they want to be how they want to lead. And, you know, really clear on what are their values and living and leading according to their values and what they believe in, what's their big why why are they leading? Why are they leading other people? Why are they leading teams? That's really important because if you don't know why it's very easy to go off course. So what they're doing is they're kind of flying like a one winged bird with technical skills alone, they can't really soar as leaders because they need the other set of skills to make them soar, to get to the heights that they need to, with the skills and the tools to, you know, to lead dressing themselves, because good leadership starts with us. Because who we are is how we lead. And the third one, I think, is really important, too. It's a really, it's a myth that I see very regularly. And that is that we only have to have an environment of mechanical systems be task driven. And I'm the leader who sits above you. And I'm the one who makes the decisions. And that's how I'm going to get the best out of people, if you're good technically, or if you're good in the systems and the mechanics, we don't have to have connection, we don't have to look at each other as human beings, we don't have, if I yell at you, I don't have to worry about that, because as long as you're mechanically doing got a mechanical task driven job role, well, then that's all you have to do. And then you get into these mechanical driven cultures and, and leaders, you know, let's not show any kind of celebration for people when they do a good job or knowing when to stop and celebrate things that are going going well. Because if I do that people are going to slacking off their productivity is going to going to reduce and that's, that's not how it actually works to motivate people. Leaders like this don't know when to hit the accelerator, and also to slow down and hit the brake and to actually take some time to connect to celebrate, to work out what what it means to to motivate and to build those connections on a, you know, one on one basis with our team members, whether we're in a mediation the other side, whether we're in a team in an office, but it's those connections, because the confident leader knows that they hold the heart of the organisation within them. There's no I in team there's, it's a we, the team leader is part of the team. They're not above the team. They're not below the team. They're part of the team. So they pray and prioritise, creating those connections with every individual on the team. And a lot of people are mithya is oh, we don't need to do that, we just need to get the work done. And that doesn't really create a courageous culture. So it really these are myths, because with the myths come consequences, and when we can get through the myths, we can actually build up a foundation for building up the reality as to how to build honest, courageous, authentic leaders, cultures that are then the norm, and where people make those hard decisions. And, you know, courage is is an competencies rewarded. So it's really important. So my, that's a long winded way of saying it. But the one piece of advice I would give no matter where you are on the road, your journey to leadership, because we're all leaders, we can all be leaders, if we're role models, if we're showing up as the best of who we can be. We're interacting, and we're setting that intention every hour every day to interact as the best version of ourselves. And we've got a vision, and we're heading in that. Well, even if we we have that vision. And we're here, we're not, you know, we may be here on that the start of that journey. And we met, we have to ask ourselves, are we met for more? What about more is more leadership skills, more influence, more money, more impact, more courage, more confidence, more clarity, more engagement, more technicals, whatever it is. But if we think that if we don't believe that we are meant for more, well, this is it, this is the best it's ever going to get. As far as the leadership is concerned, you've reached this pinnacle of your leadership success, your life success and your career success. If we believe that we are meant for more, well, then we'll take and you know, not only that were meant for more, but it's also possible for us to have more, well, then we'll take action so that we do reach that more so that we go from just you know, getting through each day and working long hours and surviving. And we head into into thriving.
Isabella:I think your juxtaposition of the technical skills versus the leadership skills are so important, I think, particularly in the legal profession, especially in the high performance cultures and the firms that really demand perfectionism quite early on, you know, from the clerkship level, that it's really important. And I think even with COVID, it's sort of made an excuse for leaders to not need connection and not need to be there to motivate the team and to, you know, build those relationships within the team because it's very easy to say, well, we're not in the office where we're all working remotely, it's hard to reach everyone where you are. So I think that's a, that's a really good point that that you made about how it's only half, it's always going to be unbalanced if you're only relying on those technical skills. And usually the technical skills, like you said, that they've learned from, you know, 20, 30, 40 years ago, whereas leadership skills, you're constantly needing to learn them and pick them up from mentors or from coaching or just from experience.
Unknown:Yeah. And can I just say, I've done that too Isabella, you know, when you say through COVID, with a leader, you know, the hybrid working arrangements, and this creates more disconnection. And one of the consequences Well, now we see that one of the things are people are leaders are finding it hard to retain and attract good talent. That costs a lot of money. So it's, it's not just all let's be, you know, let's be connected for a reason. There's a increases productivity, increases staff, retention, and all those kinds of things. So it has benefits for the business as well. So it's really, really important. Yeah, it is.
Isabella:It's such a flow on effect. And I guess, yeah, leaders understand that from every aspect of the business, not just from their own personal aspect.
Unknown:Yeah, correct.
Isabella:Researching Australian law is demanding and time consuming. The Jade platform has free open access and comprehensive coverage of Australian common and statute law materials. With our easy to use professional tools, you'll get better results and keep up to date like never before. Join the community of efficient legal researchers and sign up today at www.jade.io. So Louise, obviously, through your personal experiences, what is one of the biggest challenges that you've overcome?
Unknown:We don't have enough time to go through them all. So I'm going to talk about when I first started starting to study law, I was 41 years old. Oh, wow. Yeah. And I hadn't finished high school many years earlier, I finished in year 10. I was working full time I was busy. I had very little time. I didn't, I didn't know if I was smart enough to do law. I knew nothing about law. I knew I didn't know any lawyers. You know, I didn't even know what an order was when I started to study law, and to ask people what to audit what a court order once. And there are a lot of things that were against me when I started to study law. But I could have stopped right there. And allowed my doubts, my fears, my excuses. I don't have time, I'm too old. What are you thinking, Louise, you're too old to be doing this. This is ridiculous. You didn't finish high school. I don't know if this is the right decision. I don't know, if I'll be successful, even if I get to the end this kind of give me a job. And these kinds of reasoning, or this kind of reasoning and the excuses that, you know, arise could have stopped me from taking action. And that was really, that was one of the hurdles or the obstacles that, you know, challenges that I had to overcome with all of these excuses and reasons at that time.
Isabella:And so what's the most important thing you learned from that experience?
Unknown:We can get into our heads. Or we can stay in our heads. And when we stay in our heads, we kind of become paralysed and we don't take action. But I had to make a choice. Yes, I thought I had tonnes of reasons and excuses not to take action. So I could make a choice. I could keep the status quo do nothing, never know what I was capable of. And stop where I was running specialist medical practices. And I could, you know, go through life, less stress, feel safe. Number two, I could procrastinate until I felt like, I've got to wait till the time's right, until I feel capable. Or I could choose number three. Let's take the first step. See what's possible, see what unfolds. If I succeeded, I know I could do it. If I failed. Well, I knew I couldn't do it. But I'm a person who wants to know because not knowing, not taking action and not knowing keeps me up at night. And leaders are exactly the same position. All leaders are in the same position. They look at a mountain before them and because everybody has obstacles, you're a law student. You've got obstacles, you go through exams, how am I going to get through them, I'm gonna do a dv dx. Leaders have obstacles as well. But we're all on Basecamp. And we all start off in the same position. But we all have a choice whether we're going to hold on to our limiting beliefs and the excuses that we hold so dear. This isn't the right time. I'm too old. I've done this too long. And this is the way I've always done it. I don't know if it'll work. And that stops us from Taking action because we need to take uncomfortable steps to get from base camp to get up. And to be able to climb that summit. No one is going to force you, no one is going to force me, no one is going to force any leader. To leave these excuses and reasons behind, if you want to hold on to them, that's how you'll live. That's how a person and a leader will live. But you'll never lead at your full potential. Many people at base camp, they may feel the need to run around like a chicken with their head cut off. You might not know what tools you need to get up and you know, reach the summit. You might not even know what succeeding looks like, like what a success look like. That's okay. I didn't know what success look like when I started to study law. Sometimes it can unfold on the journey. But we also started base camp, and we don't have the right shoes to get up to the top. We may not have enough water, we don't have enough like weather gear or warm, you know, warm gear to take with it so that we can succeed. And we focus on everything that can go wrong on that road up to the summit, and not focus on actually what can go right. Because if we're going to focus on what can go wrong, we're never going to reach that summit, we need to take that first step. And then what can result well, as we climb the summit, we go to the next level. And what happens is we're able to handle the journey easier, the more we get some momentum. Like when I started, I only did one one subject. I came forth and I thought it's probably a fluke. So I did one more subject. I'll test it out contracts, getting love it got a pass, that's okay. But then by the more momentum I got, the more confidence I've gotten in the last 18 months of my my studies, I was doing four subjects at a time and working full time. And I was placing, I was doing well academically. So we need to hit that momentum we need to get, we find that we you know, the journey doesn't get easier, we just are able to handle it better, we're able to become more productive, more influential, more successful. But the opposite is if we don't even take the first step to climb that mountain, well, then we'll become paralysed in fear. And we think I'm not enough, I'm not good enough. I don't know enough, I fear heavy, you know, conflict, I fear that I'm going to look weak, and then we just don't take that action that we need to be able to get up that mountain and that summit. So I didn't know the path. When I started. I didn't know, you know, I just looked at the food subject. But I started I took that uncomfortable step. So as I said, it's only when we take that uncomfortable action. And it accumulates, it's not like it's all in middle, you know, their own silos, they all build upon each other. And then I was able to grow my confidence and then take on more of a workload. And that's really no different to leaders as well, to leadership. Because I don't know, where have you seen that you may have seen that movie called We Bought a Zoo. You may not. But Benjamin you have, okay. Benjamin Mia says, you know, sometimes all we need is 20 seconds of insane courage. And I promise you something great will come of it. With courage, we can take those steps. And that's why it's really important that we don't stay stagnant that we continue to go to that next level.
Isabella:So after experiencing those challenges, and learning from them, how did you take action? And how did your life change afterwards?
Unknown:I just like I spoke about a moment ago, I think it's all cumulative. Because I've always had a student mindset. I've always been a lifelong learner, like I've read so many books and attended courses and done seminars and conferences, on leadership on human behaviour on thinking, you know, all those kinds of things. So at that point in my life, I was already quite well advanced in my journey. It wasn't like that was the first obstacle I was 41. You know, it wasn't like the first obstacle that I've ever come across in my life. But it compounded it made it easier for me to make to take that next step. So I was really thankful for that, that I had learned those things earlier in my life. And all of us, you know, we're all at different. As I said before, we're all at different points in our lives. Some of us are just starting out so much further along, but look at it as an opportunity to take action, fail or succeed and learn and succeed learn and that all accumulates to get to a point where instead of avoiding things, we actually take that courageous action and we don't need to overcomplicate things. Let's you know we can keep things simple. We just have to make a decision. Even when we're uncertain, I was uncertain, I didn't know what the staircase look like, to the end. We have to just make that decision, even when we're afraid. Because all of us are afraid for you doesn't go, no matter how much you betray, you're not afraid. everybody deals with fear. It's, it's a, it's a shared human emotion. You know, many of us have gone through are not enough, I don't know enough, not good enough, not liked enough, not popular enough, I won't be accepted. But instead of when we make that decision, taking that action, we're not going to stop. Because of that fear. We're going to commit to that field, we're not going to have one foot in and one foot out, we're going to go all in. Because when we, when we go out one foot in and one foot out, we're going to look at more excuses to stop us from taking that journey. But if we've got both feet in, we're going to go Go ahead regardless. So when we're scared, that is not a signal to Okay, stop. Let's stop. Now it's a signal to Okay, what do I need to learn, this is a time for me to learn and to keep taking that action. So instead of looking for, okay, I need to know that I'm going to get a perfect ending. Because none of us, you know, life isn't about always knowing the ending. Sometimes we need to know where here and this is where I want to be, and there may be a missing middle, there may be a messy middle. And that's what we need to share as leaders with other people so that we can role model the way how they can get to where they need to get quicker.
Isabella:So what has been the most significant turning point in your life and in your leadership?
Unknown:I'm really talking a lot about myself. But it's really not to it's only in the hope that people can see that no matter where they are now, no matter how they feeling, no matter how messy it feels that they can get to where they want to go. And I've had some real obstacles and one of the most significant mountains I ever had to overcome. And that was a significant challenge. But it turned out to be one of the most significant turning points in my life as well. And that was when I was a preteen, right, right through to my early 30s. I suffered with depression I had, I had such low self esteem, lots of self doubt, absolutely no confidence. I'm actually a twin. And most of my childhood photos are me standing behind my twin sister, as she spoke, and she I just wasn't I didn't even want to be seen. I was really, in the background. Very shy, very introverted. I didn't ask for help. And I no one ever saw the real me. I was very quiet. And I didn't. As I got older, I didn't really want to show people how scared I was. And all the things that I was struggling with I portrayed when I went to work, no one would have ever known that I was anything but this confident person, in whatever role I was doing at the time, that everybody says to me, Oh, you're looking you know, you've got it all together? Well, how many people do we know like that? Who portray confidence is everybody thinks they've got it all together, but inside, they're really struggling. So no one knew of my struggles. But I felt like I was surviving up until my early 30s. But I attempted suicide twice. I say that only for the fact that that's the messy middle. But out of that came something great. I didn't want to die. I just wanted the pain to stop and leadership can be painful. Leadership can be painful. I was given the second and third chances of life. And so that turning point taught me It taught me many lessons. But some of the lessons are I can use this to help other people. I can use this experience to role model the way that others it's taught me if I'm a if I'm a leader, and I'm suffering in silence, if I'm running away from what feels uncomfortable, pretending everything is fine. Pretending that perfect perfect, which is a symptom of low self esteem is not the solution to any of the problems, the problems won't go away. It made me realise the importance of mindset. Because when our mindset is supporting us, well, it won't create these type of behaviours. I was afraid to ask for help leaders if you are afraid to ask for help seeing that a sign of weakness or think I don't have time to to get help. plus, I cannot show what I really like, well, this is going to be a test, and it's going to show you that, well, you're going to be need to be much more courageous. If you don't have the skills and the tools and the tools to climb that mountain that you want to climb, and be the leader that you want to be and wish you had had, how many of us want to, you know, we look at leaders, and we are, I wish I'd had that they don't want to be that leader. Like, but to be the leader that we wish we had coming, you know, going through life, turning into that leaders that like, you know, God has given us a tool so that we can be that leader on the other side of that hard, you know, obstacle that we've got to get around.
Isabella:When I was working for barristers, I had a similar experience where I was being employed as a senior paralegal lead on a case, which was, you know, a firm was instructing a barrister that I was working for, but I was a lot younger than all the other paralegals, and obviously, the solicitors. And so then, people coming to me to check things and to go through things and to have meetings, I was really insecure. And I didn't know everything, obviously, at the time. And you put a lot of pressure on yourself that when you've got this title, and when you've got this team and this responsibility, that you need to know all the answers if people come to you, and I never asked for help for the first few weeks going through that. And then I had a bit of a mentoring session with the barrister that I was working for and she said to me, if your team and the people around, don't see you go to people more knowledgeable than you for help, then they'll never come to you for help. That's how it works. So they'll also feel like that and you're creating a culture where if they don't know what they're doing, even the smallest task, they feel like they're going to be judged by you. Because in a way, it's in your head intimidation. And they think that you know everything you think you're expecting them to know everything. The barrister thinks that you're completely fine, because you're not asking for help, and you're acting like everything's fine. Well, that's where those cultures stem from, and it really carries into your personal life. And I remember, I remember this barrister is saying to me, like, in order for you to know all of this, you would have to not be doing uni at the same time not be doing any other jobs, literally eating, breathing, you know, sleeping and just thinking about this one case, and it's not realistic, and no one's expecting that from you. So the expectations that you put on yourself that are usually toxic anyways, because they're not serving you as a leader. They're the ones that you know, you're thinking it's, you're really under a lot of pressure, or we really stress from your job. Or yourself. That's doing the damage.
Unknown:Correct. Yeah, that's right. So who you are, like what was like you said, what was going on in your head, what you thought the expectations on, that's what was going out you were you were and that's why how leadership is you work out your stuff on the people that you're, and you're setting the tone for the rest of the people under you. So true, what you say so true. And you know, we weren't even if you had had it, even if you did nothing else, but that case, you would never know it all.
Isabella:Never, never. It's basically, you know, hearing from a barrister who I perceived as being so knowledgeable had a lot of respect for and they didn't even know half the things that were going on in that case. So it's really important that you're saying you know that a title, what you think is your responsibility or your authority, it means nothing if you don't have people to go to for help, and people can't ask you for help.
Unknown:It creates a culture that is normalised and courageous because it takes courage to go to somebody and say, I don't know, I need help. I'm struggling with this. Because you don't know the outcome. You don't know where they get, they're gonna think less of you, you don't know what their reaction will be. But still doing it anyway. Because you need that help and creating that as a normal part of the culture. And doesn't mean you're an idiot because you go and ask for help. Or you're incompetent, or you're victimised because you asked for help. That's the culture because we can either have a node or culture, which is a fear based culture. Or we can have a curiosity culture, which is a courageous, confident culture. And the leaders, as you say, are the ones and it's often in their head. You see, you've been taught, it's often what's happening in their head. What they're trying to work through, is actually when they're creating this fear based knowledge or culture or the curiosity I don't know at all it's okay to say I don't know I don't. Really, really important because you said it goes to your personal life. It affects every area of your life. Yeah, really important. So I That really makes me realise too as to even, you can see the value of mindset for how our thoughts and how our how we think about things. It's either going to help us to be the best that we can be and lead the best we can be, or whether our fears or they're going to think badly of me, or they're going to think I'm not operating if I asked for help. And one last thing I'll share with that, too, and this sounds morbid, but it's not from a morbid perspective, is that I, I learnt a mortality mindset from that point in time, because none of us know when our last day is, right. So I kind of go through life thinking, well, if tomorrow was my last day, would I be happy with my decisions? The way I treated people the way I showed up the way I hoped people would the way I made a difference? And or am I ordered a whole back and not really go for it? Because I was too afraid? And if, if I am not going for it, because I'm too afraid? Or if I'm making choices that don't make me the best role model I can be? Well, how am I going to get? How am I going to feel at the end of that my life? Am I gonna live with regret? Yeah, I will. So it's about living each day as the role model that we want to be but also the difference that we want to make in other people's lives. Really, really important, because all of us spend so much in our leadership is not just word leadership is with our families. Leadership is with our parents, our partners, our children now, whatever leadership is, you know, across the board. Yeah, so it's really important.
Isabella:And yeah, it's really important that you mentioned that because obviously everyone wants fulfilling careers that they can see purpose, your purpose in so if they're not making a difference, you know, with their mentorship, for the people in their team then going to be a pretty unfulfilling career.
Unknown:Absolutely.
Isabella:The Victorian Reports digital portal has been developed by the team at Jade for Little William Bourke, the official publisher of the Victorian Reports. Access the VRs with incoming citations at paragraph level, anywhere you need them. Use a digital VR to find related materials in other jurisdictions and find the answers you need, quickly access the report that you need on demand with the Pay Per View service, and add to your collection with an annual bound volume subscription, get access at openlaw.org.au/access or visit www.victorianreports.com today. So how can people lead with confidence? I know that it's a very broad thing to just say, but based on your experience and teachings, how do people lead with confidence?
Unknown:I think that that well. I from my learnings, and I can only talk about what's worked and what I've learnt. But our clarity, having clarity, being clear on who am i Who's the best version of me? How do I want to interact as the best version of me what type of leader to I want to be? Because if we don't, and because clarity kind of gives us a roadmap to where we want to go, it's our future self. So if we feel like we're leading without a map, and we're just kind of reacting everyday to everything that comes to us, we don't have clarity. And we'll be working out on our teams, our own insecurities, and our own things that we're struggling with all day long. And as a leader that is so dangerous. Because if we're not leading from the best of you know, the best version of ourselves. It's really dangerous for our teams, our businesses, and our families, our children, etc. So if we're using, you know, criticism, finger pointing, blame is tools, or we're denigrating our employees, either behind closed doors or in front of others, or we're, you know, claiming credit for their work. We're not owed, like you said, you know, in your workplace that you asked for help. Great, I applaud you. But a lot of leaders say no, no, I need to know it all. And I don't want to hear your ideas, because I've got the best ideas as well, because that's my job. I'm the leader, I have to have the best ideas. If we find ourselves doing that, are we micromanaging or we're giving giving out work? And we're really not giving people the instructions their native affiliate correctly. Biggie are they're smart, they'll work it out. We're really leading from a we're not open to two way feedback as in you know, I give you feedback, but you're also feel comfortable to give me feedback as well. This is really what confident leadership this really is what encapsulates confident leadership, holding ourselves accountable, holding other people accountable, being authentic, taking action and As I said, And the opposite is many leaders will get their pain on other people in the workplace and their teams. And that that's not a place for them to work out their stuff, their insecurities, their fears. And so they stack up all these negative experiences. And they limit themselves instead of thinking of having a vision for themselves. But it'd be has to become a must, if it's odd like to, you know, it'd be nice if I could, but you know, I don't have time or all of the excuses. But when it becomes a must, that transcends our desires that transcends our limitations and our excuses. If I must be a confident leader, you'll move heaven and earth, to learn to get the skills to be that confident leader because like legal skills, we had to take steps to slow progress, it takes years progress to get to be a lawyer, it's the same with leadership, I have to take the first step to learn how to be that confident, leader that clarity is, is key, because leader heal yourself first. If we're worried about what other people think of us, or we have to fit in, or we're creating a culture that has to fit in, well, then we have to have the confidence to know what I think how I evaluate myself is okay, I don't have to wait on other people to or my status or my title to make me feel valid. Because James clear, says he's a guy. I don't know whether you've heard of the book atomic habits or not.
Isabella:I'm currently reading that one. That's actually really, it's pretty good. It really gets into attacking your bad habits at the moment. And yeah, sort of making it indispensable for you to create new ones, it makes you think, Well, I'm fully capable of turning everything around.
Unknown:Yeah. Because habits, what we do on a regular basis is what we become and what we do. So yeah. And so it's a no different for leadership, if we were, our habits are a particular way now well, we can change them. But it takes intention, it takes skills, but he said, If we accept the reality of slow progress, you have every reason to take action. Now, if you resist the reality of slow growth progress, five years from now, and you'll simply be five years older, and still looking for a shortcut. So we need to really look at if I want to be a confident leader, what steps do I need to take, and it's going to take courage, it's going to take you not having to know the whole staircase, like I didn't, like none of us do in life. And it has to become a must. And not if we feel uncomfortable. Well, that means that we're pushing, we're going to the next level. If we're if we're going to stay comfortable within we're going to go through life feeling like that's okay. But we're never ever going to reach our full potential. And confident leadership is about not putting on what Brene Brown calls the armour. We don't lose our humanity, we still come up to work. And we show up as a human. We show we're clear about how we show up, we're clear about you know, what we may struggle with as a team, as a leader, we get curious. And we don't go into self protection portraying this perfect person who knows it all because and, you know, when we draw, if things get tough, or we hide, or we, you know, we might be in a meeting, and we don't say anything, because of what other people think, Well, let's not, let's not confident leadership, because all all voices are really useful. And another way that if we find ourselves as a leader, trying to, you know, show our power and trying to control our teams by using power, and that can be aggression, and, you know, not allowing people autonomy, etc. Well, then we're never going to be a confident leader. And we unless we change our, our habits unless we change who we are. So it's really important to know that grounded confidence as a leader, is the heart of courageous leadership as well. So we've got to be confident to be a courageous leader. So if we don't have confidence, we'll never be a courageous, we'll always be a fearful leader. And that's really the nutshell.
Isabella:And I think even with clarity, just from our discussion that we had a couple of weeks ago, with clarity, you need rest. You can't be approaching a situation, especially when you're trying to figure out what's the best, you know, plan of plan of action in a stressful time or in a lifetime of conflict in your team. You need to approach it from a place of rest and ensuring that your mental well being is, you know, looked after at the same time because you can't look at things clearly. Whether you're in a team or whether you're a leader Correct. You need to you need a part ties breastfeed yourself.
Unknown:Correct? I think we spoke about if you know, we don't treat ourselves as a million dollar racehorse, would you rate feed it fed food? Would you not let it slip? Would you you know flog it when this milk is cost you a million bucks, and you're hoping it's going to make you a million plus bucks perform really well? Well, now we'd give it the best. Well, if we're not giving ourselves the best, like you said, sleep, rest all those things to energise ourselves, well, it's going to be very difficult to be that leader that we want to be to unmute. Yeah, absolutely. Right.
Isabella:And so what are the underrated tools that are indispensable for confident leadership?
Unknown:I would say don't don't minimise the the skill of being curious of being of learning and creating that, that in yourself that it's okay, you don't have to be the best leader now. But be willing to learn your teams, whether they start off as a junior or they're, you know, really experienced, that none of them are going to know everything, create a culture of learning, and make that a skill that is a priority learning is a skill that is a priority. And what being really clear on you know, what? knowledge, skills, talents, abilities, I need as a leader, and each of my team members need so that they can perform at the next level as well. What do they need to need to learn? Because all of these things are learnable. It's not like you're born with it. You're born with leadership skills, or you're born with confidence. So you're born to be the best leader? No, they're all learnable skills. And that's how we build competence. It's competence helps us to build confidence as well. So really have the mindset not fixed but what I call a growth mindset. Be willing to learn be willing to fail, be willing to get pick yourself up and learn from that experience, because no failure is a failure. Unless you don't learn from it, you keep making the same mistake over and over again, but you, we have to allow leaders and teams to fail, because in that way, that's how they're going to incrementally improve and get up that mountain, really be willing to learn and to treat each other as human beings. Communicate, as human beings get to know your team members get to note and leaders are you having one on ones with your team, you might think I'm too busy. Well, you've got to humanise the, the the workspace. Because in that way, you're going to build productivity, you're going to build engagement, and your confidence will grow as well. Because you'll be able to see that you'll be able to handle whatever problems do come up in those conversations as well, really important, can be curious and learning from team members as well.
Isabella:And I guess asking for help, or connecting with your team, it makes them feel valued. And so ultimately, they're going to show up to work as their best selves, because they feel like they belong and their input is respected. And they actually have a place in the organisation. And they're not just a number, they're not just an employee, they matter.
Unknown:Yeah, that's right. Because everyone, everybody wants to feel like they're significantly making a difference. They're not just, you know, number 335. You know, you're Isabella, I'm released, you're making a difference to my thank you for coming to work and being so productive, and look what we're working on together. You know, we're making a difference together. And you might think it's all you know, pie in the sky sort of stuff. But this is what really makes high performing teams and high performing leaders. This is what makes people and businesses thrive because what's what how people have led in the past is not going to cut it for where we are now in on into the future. And that's where the real this is where the rubber hits the road, the ones who really are going to be separating themselves as leaders, who will who will stand out in times of recession and in times of you know, inflation and uncertainty are the ones who are who have the leadership skills as opposed to the one to you know, to fear for one go to well being they might, you know, Institute well being in the organisation great. We all need Well, burning love we spoke about, but That's level one. We need to then go into how do we create those cultures? So yeah, it's, it's, it's work, but it's about having that as part of our life as well. Why do we want to do do these kinds of things? What's it like you said, what's our purpose? Really important?
Isabella:And so our last question for today's episode. What's one question you wish I'd asked you and how would you have answered?
Unknown:What's your favourite place you visited in the world? My favourite place was a cruise just before COVID was a cruise to South America when I went to Antarctica. Amazing, amazing. Amazing. Um, trip. South America was not a place that I was on my bucket list. But I, you know, found it fascinating. But Antarctica was just unbelievable. So yeah, I've been to I've lived in the state. And but that was that was really outstanding. Yeah. I would recommend anyone catching. Yeah, it is exciting. I mean all the wildlife. It's just it's just an unbelievable place to be see and visit.
Isabella:It's also not a common trip you hear, you know, everyone goes to America, Europe, Asian countries, but yeah, Antarctica, that sounds incredible.
Unknown:Yeah, it was incredible. Yeah, it seems so many different cultures. And how we are, you know, we're all unique individuals, and it's okay to be unique. It's okay to be different. It's okay to be because our whole world is made up of all different, you know, kinds of people and cultures and whatever. And how we've got to be, you know, I think the more you travel, the more you accept that there are differences good. We just got to accept people for who they are.
Isabella:Especially the worldly experience you attain with travelling. I think it makes you just a better person overall.
Unknown:Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Now, I couldn't agree more.
Isabella:Well, thank you so much, Louise for your time. On today's episode, we will be having another episode with Louise in season three, which is launching in 2023. And we're going to be discussing mediation. So something very specific but you know, from Louise's experience as a barrister and mediator and also being trained in, in teaching and consulting in mediation, it's going to provide such incredible value to our listeners. So thank you so much for being on the podcast today, Louise.
Unknown:Great. Thanks, Isabella. I really enjoyed our discussion. Look forward to next season.
Isabella:I'll have all of Louise's links and website, social media linked in the bio of this episode as well as on social media. Thanks, everyone. Thanks for tuning into today's episode. Be sure to follow us on social media@thelawfluentpodcast on Instagram and Facebook. And @ Open Law on LinkedIn and Twitter to stay up to date. Keep listening on your favourite streaming services including Spotify, Apple podcasts, and many more and hit subscribe so you don't miss any new episodes. Leave us a review if you enjoyed the episode. And if you'd like to contact me you can email icarrozzi@openlaw.com.au. And don't forget to head over to openlaw.org.au to learn more stay up to date and become Lawfluent. I'll speak to you next time.